Do you believe IVF is ok?

[Ididivfama]

I’ve been reading a lot of the surrogacy threads recently (and I know that is a different topic) but I was curious to mumsnet posters ideas of ethics and ivf. You can see from my name that we ended up doing it, but I won’t be horribly offended by different views. I’m more curious.

Obviously it’s ’unnatural’ as a process and there is the issue of what happens to any extra blastocysts (I use the term blastocyst as they are pre-embryo stage and calling them embryos makes people view it differently - at least I did!) Even so, would you count leaving blastocysts to decay as abortion? I never did but I’ve read that view now so I’m curious as to how many people view it like that.

As is pointed out on the surrogacy threads - no one is ‘entitled’ to have a child. Is that the same for us ivf parents?

And for the whole “they won’t know their biological parent” argument, what about all the shit dads out there who disappear when they get a woman pregnant?

That’s not an ethical dilemma. That’s shit men. I don’t think you’d get anyone on MN arguing that shit dads should be allowed to just disappear.

I agree, I’m pretty shocked by some of the views on here, I’m really surprised it was even posted as a question because the answer from my IRL experience is obvious. Of course it’s ok. It makes me wonder do some of the people who are so ok with it IRL secretly feel this way?? It’s baffling to me

I think it is important questions can be asked, about pretty much anything really.
We shouldn't be in a 'no debate' society.
Even if the answer is, for 99.99999% of people totally obvious.

I'm sure I've heard people arguing that it shouldn't be on the NHS or is "messing with nature" for decades.

@aramox1 we’ve been on here a similar amount of time, and I’ve seen this topic come up numerous times over the years.

I suppose it just depends what pops up when you’re browsing Mn.

I think IVF is a wonderful thing and I wish that there were more cycles funded on the NHS and that it wasn't a postcode lottery. Infertility is a disease and should be treated as such. IVF and other fertility treatments enable some wonderful people to become parents who wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

I don't really understand the "IVF isn't natural" argument - most medical procedures aren't natural? My mum had a knee replacement 8 years ago - should she have refused the operation and been left to suffer because having metal in your knee is "unnatural"? I don't see this as much different tbh.

For reference, I had my children "naturally" - whatever that is.

Never said it should be a no debate society but still a normal reaction to be surprised by a question that would seem to have an obvious answer. Like my previous example - should a person with one leg be allowed to have a bionic replacement leg? I’m sure if that question was posed there’d be confusion and outrage…

A bionic replacement leg probably doesn’t have (direct) implications for another human being though!

It's not a hidden message though is it? It's flaming obvious.

And it has frankly nothing to do with 'deserving' - if procreation was fair or only for deserving then how do you explain parents who mistreat and murder their own children .

If your body has a fault, then we would be stupid to ignore it for our own selfish reasons. Yes it is selfish to want children, I'm selfish to want my own children, I'm lucky because I didn't need help, I've also said before that I would have considered IVF, I would never judge anyone for having IVF.

Just picking up on your last point about shit dad's..... Something else that highlights that falling of has nothing to do with deserving

I don’t get your point. What are the direct implications on another human being? (Other than the parent of the wanted child who is obviously prepared for the implications on having that child)

The child themselves? (I’m only talking about IVF using egg / sperm donation here - I have no issue with IVF otherwise)

I don’t think it’s fair to deliberately bring a child into the world knowing they will not have a relationship with their biological parents.

@BassoContinuo do you know many children or adults from donations? I have six in my family (2 myself) and the 4 are now adults, and we have friends who have older teenagers too. They have all said they have no interest in ever contacting their donors as they don't feel any connection to them at all, so would seem weird to deny people the ability to have children when so many have no problem with being created this way. (I caveat that each one of them was told their conception story from very very young so it has never been a shock or anything other than normal to them)

Fair enough, I actually disagree. I know a few who have gone down donor route. Kids are pretty happy to exist and don’t currently have much interest in their donor egg/sperm. Maybe they will in time and that’s great, as the parents are supportive and have been open about it all since birth.

I agree, there are lots of assumptions about how happy other people are with this without knowing any.

IVF is fine. Surrogacy and egg donation in lieu of payment/part payment for IVF is not.

I do know some, yes. Varying degrees of comfort with it.

All of them feel like they have unanswered questions about some things, though.

Perhaps it would be different for genuinely open donation.

Yes. And entirely unrelated to the question of whether surrogacy is okay, and under what circumstances.

I get the surrogacy argument. But Egg Donation or as it's called in regards to the part payment towards IVF 'egg Share' then why then?

And the fact women who go through IVF frequently donate extra eggs.

While I 100% agree with most aspects of IVF, I know they don’t all come without ethical dilemmas. I’m not sure how I feel about embryo donation, while it is a fantastic thing to do for people who are unable to conceive themselves it does come with ethical problems. It’s not the same as sperm donation, as the man has done it out of his free will and knows (because of UK law) that he will not be anonymous to the child once they grow up. Egg and embryo donation is more complex because there’s opportunity for women to be exploited and most don’t do it out of their own free will. They do it because IVF is so expensive and the costs are drastically reduced if they donate some of their own eggs or embryos. Clinics even heavily advertise this as a way for people to afford it. That is not ethical imo. The NHS needs to fund more IVF and not put people in a position where the only way they can do it is by donating their extra eggs/embryos despite not feeling 100% comfortable with this

I Egg Shared for the first two cycles I had. I'm proud of this. I wasn't pushed into it, coerced, harassed or persuaded. I did it because I wanted to. Yes, it reduced the cost of my IVF (thank god it did because I still ended up paying more than £50k and perhaps my future Forensic Archaeologist wouldn't be here at all!) but it also made another woman a mother. She had a son in 2009. Infertile women are not brain dead! We have our faculties like all other women! Im allowed to choose and i am glad I choose to go ahead with it. I would still choose it again.

Couples can't just say 'ooh we'll have IVF'. There are so so many hoops to jump through. Did you know that before you can have IVF you have to have a meeting and fill in 'Welfare of the Child' forms to ensure that you're okay to be a parent? To make sure that any child resulting from fertility treatment will be looked after! Do women who conceive naturally have to do that? No! Those women can breed as they like regardless of whether they are up to par! Do you think Sharon Matthews had to fill one in?! And we're talking about 'ethics'!

I had to have 3 sessions with a counsellor before I would even be considered for Egg Donation.

Let's not pretend that there are evil scientists sat in fertility clinics across the country just waiting to steal the poor barren womens eggs because there isn't and stop trying to decide for other women when and how they should use their own eggs.

I think it's silly to say that because I haven't got children from donated sperm means I don't get an opinion!

What I'm seeing in your responses is that all of these concerns brought up specifically by donor conceived children should be dismissed because you haven't heard donor conceived children saying them, and you don't think that donor conceived children really think that, or that they say it but they don't really mean it, or that if they do mean it it's probably only that one person so they should be ignored!

I can imagine that no donor conceived children are likely to bring up their concerns about donor conception to you anyway, as they know that you have donor conceived children so that would be incredibly weird and rude!

If I can't have an opinion because I don't have direct experience, maybe you don't get an opinion either because you aren't a donor conceived child? Maybe we should just listen to what the donor conceived children say?

@fluffyguineapig yet again you're ignoring open donors and ignoring what the dcps are saying and realising why they are saying it - as in not having contact with their donors which is the whole point. also having no experience in talking to / dealing with / understanding anything to do with donors conception really does show, and it why it is making a clear impact on your ability to understand what is being said.
If I knew nothing about a subject, had never dealt with it, or had any understanding of it I'd probably just keep my mouth shut as assume I probably didn't know enough to make an informed opinion on something. rather than trying to shame a whole host of people who have dealt with it and know a whole lot more than you.
I do speak directly to donor conceived children and adults - thousands of them now over the years, hence my comments to you and having a wide understanding of what their concerns cover and having gone through extensive research, nd counselling both individually and as part of donor conceived children's groups.

I'm sorry but fundamentally I disagree. It's simply not true to say that the only problems that donor conceived children have is when it's anonymous conception. It's just factually incorrect. I've posted many, many quotes from donor conceived children. You're the one who is talking over donor conceived children's voices.

When I know nothing about a subject I research it and listen to the voices of the people who know more than me. My opinion, while different to yours, is informed by research. It's not a lack of understanding, and it's really condescending to say that anyone who disagrees with you simply hasn't understood the issues.