Voting to "Get the Tories Out" part 2

[AdamRyan]

Follow on to this thread to continue discussion

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4978642-voting-to-get-the-tories-out?page=40&reply=132044464

The underfunding of CAMHS and lack of support for ND children is a huge problem. My own child is on an "urgent" referral that I've been told will take years because he's not actively suicidal

I think the way ND children are being let down is a much bigger issue than can be dealt with by focusing on gender.

They said "Put simply, this means that there will always be places where it is reasonable for biological women only to have access. Labour will defend those spaces, providing legal clarity for the providers of single-sex services."

I don't think it can be said much more clearly than that. If you distrust them to the point you think they mean males when they say biological women then I cannot see how they can earn your vote.

They have been much clearer on this than the conservatives. Incidentally I didn't see this level of questioning when Sunak said "A man is a man and a woman is a woman" at conference. Without a definition of woman, he could have meant males in there too.

Finally I wanted to respond about "full transition"/ bottom surgery.

If you look into that surgery you'll see that it's extremely invasive, leads to a requirement for life long after care and has very variable results.

I don't think its reasonable to require people to go through that level of medical intervention to "prove" they are women. Personally I prefer an approach of gender certification with medical gatekeeping to demonstrate dysphoria. I also think people questioning their gender should be given psychologist support and have any mental health issues treated separately to transition.

And Labour have said pretty much the same thing (referring to my earlier link plus quoted part).

I don’t disagree but I also think a Labour vote is an anti woman vote. It would be easy for Labour to satisfy women that they will revert the harm to women done by gender and I wish they would. The fact they haven’t is why I won’t vote for them and think they are also anti woman.

The underfunding of CAMHS is shocking.
Of course it needs addressing.

That doesn’t mean that the harm to autistic girls from gender ideology doesn’t exist and shouldn’t also be addressed. Some of these girls go on to treatments which make them infertile. That’s disgusting.

Do you know what I think poses a far bigger threat to women and girls if I'm honest?

Online grooming , the influence of the likes of Andrew Tate( new word : manosphere!) , the insidious movement towards abortion bans in the US which is gaining traction as a debate here. Sexual harassment at school and in the workplace . Domestic violence. The list goes on.

To respond to the business about girl's toilets. We have segregated toilets at my school. The girls still take their periods off school - largely because of rules (now in lots of schools) restricting access to toilets combined with the facts that closed, old fashioned toilets are routinely areas of bullying, truancy, vaping and are (in my school and others) often blocked , filthy, and unsanitary. I don't understand the comment about drinking - schools have water fountains? Drinking water isn't in toilets. My male child spent the whole of secondary school not going to the toilet at school, ever.

It wasn’t me who said that was the requirement for trans women to
enter single sex spaces and I totally agree that it would be better if people did not harm their bodies because they feel their gender is wrong.

My position is that no male should be in a female single sex space, with the exception of young boys in toilets & changing room with their mothers.

Voting for a party that has policies to halve violence against women and girls, address childhood poverty, promote more affordable childcare etc is the opposite of an "anti-woman vote".

It is such strange logic I can't get my head around it. Of course it's your democratic right not to vote but at this point it really seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

The comment about drinking is that the more you drink the more likely you need the toilet so girls are refusing to drink at school in case that makes them need the loo. They would rather not have a drink than use mixed sex toilets.

Trans people can love who they like and wear what they like is often trotted out on here.

But then I read disparaging comments about this such as 'bloke in a dress', 'blue hair types' and accusations of perversion in trans women in particular. I never think it is a genuinely meant comment. Trans men are told that they are lesbians who just needed help to come to terms with it and that they should use women's toilets.

Oh and the increase in sexual violence in schools and the existence of mixed sex toilets may not be a coincidence.

It’s more likely to be due to availability of online porn.

You have not seen me make a comment about a trans persons appearance.

Regarding the other part that’s tricky because trans women commit male violence at the same rate as any other male, this is statistically proven. It’s not because trans women are trans that they should stay out of womens spaces it’s because they are male.

Reading through since last night, 2 things..
Lammy said some hoarding dinosaurs & schools in England can only have single sex toilets for u8's.

Like i said earlier, properly funded public services, solve most problems you ve raised, esp in adult social care, women have the left the sector in droves. Why have hospitals had to abandon single sex wards? not enough buildings and staff.

Many sporting organisations are banning men from female sport, if they can do this, why can't the Govt? is it beyond the wit of Govt?

You want extra funding for 3rd spaces? from where? Truss has caused huge damage to the country, one reason the average British worker is £10k worse off than his or her French or German counter part.

You seem to start from the belief that Labour are anti women, then set out to find the evidence for it, this how the Police end up charging the wrong person & i think thats what your doing too with the danger that all you care about will get worse if the Tories get back in, 13 years shows us what will continue to happen, even Sunak said so yesterday, Tax cuts funded by cuts to public services - as i asked yesterday, who will this impact?

There are mixed sex toilets at my DC school and they hate them (I have boys and girls). I think single sex is far more appropriate.

However I agree with blossom the rise in sex offences is more likely linked to online porn and general worsening of attitudes towards women driven by the Internet (Andrew Tate etc).

Are unisex toilets in schools legal?

Yes, unisex toilets can be legally provided in schools as the only washroom facility for children under eight years of age. Unisex toilets can be provided for children over eight as long as separate toilets for each gender are also available

Why is this done? Cost, money saving.

Sorry they aren't banned for over 8s, my mistake.

That’s rather like when remainers stated that Brexiteers were like ‘turkeys voting for Christmas! ‘

It’s unhelpful.

whst I would like is for Labour to see that women are unhappy about these things and to properly reassure. I don’t think that’s unreasonable . If they want my vote, and that of many other women who feel the same, they can act to reassure us.

‘Separate toilets for each gender’ means toilets for girls + boys who identify as girls. That’s mixed sex 🤷‍♀️

Like the CAMHS point you make it will be a mixture of reasons. Mixed sex toilets provide increased opportunities.

Yes your absolutely right.

However, as i said, why are schools doing this? lack of funding, one set of loo's and basins for all, cheaper to install and cheaper to maintain.

Totally wrong, which Govt has done this.

We are going round in circles.

i want to know what Labour is going to do about it.

Every single thread always ends up about trans issues, when every single thing that is happening that GC women hate has all happened under the Tory rule.

there is never any consideration of the damage the Tories do to marginalised women, therefore i refuse to accept it as part of my feminism.

Unhelpful but turns out also correct. The vast majority now think Brexit has been bad for Britain

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/dec/30/britons-brexit-bad-uk-poll-eu-finances-nhs

As I said upthread, Labour have been very clear on their position and said what you claim to need to hear. The problem is you don't trust them. That's your prerogative but it doesn't mean they are "anti-woman".

Choosing not to vote will have precisely no impact on them (or any party). If you genuinely want to change, a better approach would be to join the party, lobby and influence their policy from within.

They haven't published their manifesto, they don't know the state of the economy, they don't know what more funding cuts the Tories will leave them with.

Our local news has just reported Somerset Council is having to deal with a £100m shortfall, 5 recycling centres will close as will council toilets.... how can you expect Labour to address this, potentially 12 months from a GE?

I said an age ago, i will not make up my mind until i read their costed manifesto, so until then, i can only go on whats happening to the country now and public speeches from Labour front bench shadow ministers.