Voting to "Get the Tories Out" part 2

[AdamRyan]

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https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4978642-voting-to-get-the-tories-out?page=40&reply=132044464

@DuncinToffee I am just trying to get my head around the fact that people feel so strongly about one issue that nothing else seems to matter.

I feel like I have been saying this on almost every post since I first posted on the original thread. No one will answer this. I don't understand it either.

To paraphrase JKR, people can wear and love who they like!
No problem.

No one should be discriminated against in access to housing, social care, education employment, healthcare for their gender.

But treating them as the opposite sex harms women. There are times when Sex matters.

I also think it is deeply wrong and homophobic to say that gay and lesbians are bigoted for being same sex attracted rather than same gender attracted. That is the basis of the LGB alliance being set up which you think is a hate group.

I also have deep concerns about children being taught gender as fact and the particular impact this has on autistic and other vulnerable children.

Not really. I'm unsure as to whether your priority is Tory support, the need/lack of need for tactical voting, women's rights or opposition to the Labour party. If you had been clear I wouldn't have asked the question.

So I'll ask again: What is your priority? What is a deal breaker for you?

I have never and will never vote Tory.

In practical terms I am in a Tory safe seat so a tactical vote is meaningless. However, even if it would make a difference I cannot vote Labour because of the way Labour have treated women who have asked questions about the impact of gender ideology.

That is my bottom line. I appreciate you and many others see this as an unimportant issue but I don't. That is my right.

@lifeturnsonadime But treating them as the opposite sex harms women. There are times when Sex matters.

I also think it is deeply wrong and homophobic to say that gay and lesbians are bigoted for being same sex attracted rather than same gender attracted. That is the basis of the LGB alliance being set up which you think is a hate group.

First of all, I never said the LGB alliance was a hate group. I haven't even formed an opinion on that (yet). My point was that they are seen as being transphobic and Rosie Duffield attending their conference (as just one example of controversial things she has said/done) makes it unlikely that she will get an apology from a political leader.

How do you define treating trans women as women? I get the safe spaces argument. But I'm not really understanding what you mean by that.

I don't think anyone sees it as unimportant.

I don't define trans women as women. They are not women.

@Firefly2009 apologies I thought you meant you thought the LGB Alliance was a hate group.

And it's getting late, I think I misunderstood your question. Trans women can wear what they want and love who they want. They should not have access to women's single sex spaces and sports.

I'm not sure what else what you mean by 'treating them as women'?

@lifeturnsonadime As You don't and won't vote Tory, and clearly can't stand Labour, it begs the question: are there any other parties that are more representative of your concerns?

I don't understand what you mean by 'clearly can't stand Labour'? That's not my position. I just want clarity on this issue for them to get my vote.

Possibly the SDP might be more representative but it doesn't field candidates in my area so I can't vote for them.

Other things do matter but this is my bottom line. I've tried to explain why.

I have certainly answered the question so I don't accept that 'no one will answer this'. I have tried to, that you don't agree with me or can't change my mind doesn't change the fact that I've answered the question and that it is my bottom line!

@lifeturnsonadime No worries, I don't know. I suppose I think that if trans women (or men as you assert) don't have access to safe spaces or women's sport, then it is respectful to treat a transitioned man as a woman. For example, I wouldn't call them she/her, and I wouldn't call them by their previous name. That kind of thing. It doesn't hurt me at all to do that.

Likewise, personally, a fully transitioned woman can share spaces with me if she wants to. It would be no different to me than me sharing the changing room with a woman who identifies as gay. Neither feel threatening to me personally.

I understand there is a troubling grey area. However, I will always try to see it from both perspectives, and I think we need more of that.

Of course, that's fair enough. I probably have things that are my bottom line. The reason for such comments is that those coming to the thread to discuss gender issues have largely declined to discuss anything else. Hence, it seems as though it is only one issue.

I don't know much about the SDPs stance but that is frustrating if you haven't got a candidate to vote for in your area 🤷

@Firefly2009 thanks for this respectful conversation, I just have a couple of points about what you have said, although I respect your opinion on this.

Firstly how do you know if a Trans woman is fully transitioned? A tiny tiny number of TW actually have bottom surgery, some estimates as low as 0.1% of trans women, some have breast construction but retain the penis. You can't possibly know which trans women are fully transitioned.

You might not feel threatened by males who you think have transitioned but some women will, particularly some women who are survivors of rape or other sexual assault. Do you think that they have the right to say they have discomfort with that or that it is not acceptable to them? Can you see that their rights to single sex spaces are valid? I also think it is offensive to compare gay women to trans women. Gay women are not male, and don't have testosterone levels or tend to harm other women, males do. Trans women offend at the same rate as other males. That's how come the number of stories about trans prisoners in women's prisons is so high.

With regards to pronouns and names then I'd try to avoid. I have an issue with compelling people to speak in a particular way because I have autistic children who struggle with social communication and I don't feel comfortable with compelled speech but that's me, others feel differently.

Right it's gone midnight, I'm off to bed. Thanks for not biting my head off and for letting me put my reasoning forward.

So your bottom line is the way you perceive the treatment of Labour women by the Labour Party?

My bottom line is the way the UK government treat British women. Particularly their treatment of vulnerable women. This Tory government have locked rapists up with women. They put men on women's wards where they raped women. They spent NHS money on mutilating children's bodies while the rest of the service was cut to the bone and many children lost access to NHS dentistry. They spent money using our education system to warp the minds of vulnerable children and facilitating social transition while knowing school buildings were literally falling down and they've lost education due to Covid and teacher strikes. They wrote gendwoo into the Maternity Bill. They sexually assaulted and raped women then used party funds for private medical treatment and told them to "get over it". They brought the trans shitshow on our heads. They practically decriminalised rape and made justice for victims of VAWG as difficult as possible. They have reported private, individual women to the police and their employer for speaking or even retweeting JKR.

Women's rights are my priority. All women, not just women MP members of an individual political party.

I have never and will never vote Tory. No offence but I've heard that line before from disgraced Ex Tory MP Peter Bone who would use it when pretending to be a disgruntled Labour voter. I take it with a pile of salt.

I suppose what I'm saying is I see no prioritising of women in any of your posts.

I hear what you are saying about bottom surgery. However, I never said that I was okay with all trans women accessing single sex spaces.

I am not equating or comparing lesbians with trans women. I was simply saying how it feels to me in a single sex space; hypothetically I could feel uncomfortable knowing a gay woman is eyeing me up, in the same way that I would if a man did so, because it is a private space (and I am very much inclined to get my kit off without worrying).

On the contrary, men identifying as women, would not have testosterone if they are undergoing hormone therapy. There is also the issue of how trans women identify sexually. If a trans woman likes women then it's a potential issue. But if she is attracted to men, it is not.

It's all very complex which is why I advocate for discussion rather than a bottom line. I'd also have to look at the statistics you're quoting and check them from multiple sources.

I understand why people feel the way they do, but I also have compassion for genuine trans people.

With regards to compelling speech, I don't feel comfortable compelling that either, but I do think it is a respectful choice. For example, if I found a woman is trans, I'm not going to start calling them "he" when I had previously thought they were female - as an extreme example to demonstrate how I think it is petty. Most trans people I have known, it is not obvious that they are trans. Finding out that they are will not affect how I treat them, because for me that is prejudiced.

Ah so you’ve ignored the reasons this is key to me as set out in several posts. You clearly feel you are morally superior. That’s great. Have a good night 😴

I have ignored none of your posts. I asked for clarity, you gave it.

I have no moral superiority, I can't afford it. I am a single parent, living in poverty. I am painfully aware of how Tory party policy has eroded my rights, my circumstances, the present and future of my children. My very statehood.

A Tory vote is an anti woman vote. Do you agree @lifeturnsonadime? If not, why not?

@TooBigForMyBoots lifeturnsonadime has stated that she doesn't support the Tories and won't be voting for them.

I'm also not sure why you're disagreeing with the poster. I think you probably agree on everything, from where I'm standing at least.

I'm really worried traditional Labour voters won't vote Tory because of their stance on the war.

Soem of these make a lot of noise on Twitter but I am not concerned. At the end of the day most of them have no other available options and will vote Labour as the top priority is a change of government.

I am one of those voters for whom the current Labour party is not left wing enough but I will still vote Labour.