15yo boys - do we expect less of them than girls?

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We were chatting about a meet up she’d just been to, and dd(15) said something like “I just expect basic competence, I mean, that’s not even the bar, it’s way below the bar, but most of them just don’t have it”.

So I asked her what she meant, and it was stuff like able to organise a meet up (the girls always do it), to turn up with a secret Santa gift that they opted in to doing four weeks ago, to navigate (with a phone) and actually find places rather than walk for ages and then stand around looking puzzled, to work out how to pay in a shop which didn’t take cards.

Which made me wonder, is it just this group, or is it something societal where we expect 15yo girls to generally organise themselves and work things out, but where boys are still more looked after and supported? I nearly posted on Feminism chat, but I figured I’d only get answers around socialisation of boys there, and wondered what other people thought.

Yes it's down to fathers too.

But as I always say on MN, kids don't meekly do what their parents tell them to do. They'll either grow up to be functioning members of society or they won't.

My ds is lazy around the house, but DH is not, so he has modelled an equal relationship in terms of housework. DS might step up when he's older, or he might not.

British parents tend to think they have a lot more influence over their kids in adulthood than they actually do. But we all have our own personalities.

Hmmm I would say otherwise obviously “not all boys” but there is a general pattern here…

Boys in general mature later than girls, so until they hit later adolescence then things won't be even so it is possible that younger teens still have a bit of a gap.
However,
Your daughter is measuring competence based on what she perceives as priorities for that particular day, or even if not based on that day, on what she feels is important. The boys may have other priorities that they don't necessarily feel the need to communicate to the girls and therefore it appears that they aren't capable, but they are if they are interested in the goal.
They may have agreed to come out and do secret Santa just to get to socialise either between themselves or with these girls. It doesn't necessarily mean they actually wanted to do Secret Santa.
When she says they weren't able to navigate from one place to another in my mind they probably weren't bothered either way, and left it to those who were bothered to do the heavy lifting.

My DS is in a male only friendship group and they do quite a lot of stuff. They seem to be able to manage to get themselves around and buy sweets, etc so presumably can pay in shops. I do wonder though if they would slip back a bit and let others (i.e girls) do it, when the group is mixed (as it sometimes is).
Both of my DSs are slow to do chores, and don't act on initiative within the household and I am always trying to find a way to get on top of that. It's not easy, and for those who find it easy - I am super envious!

Questions is why do brains develop at a different rate? Is it evolutionary? Driven by social/cultural experiences and expectations? What does that mean for how we treat boys and girls? If "grown up" expectations are delayed for boys does that lead them to be more likely to opt out of adulting as a 20-something?

This is not a boy bashing thread (from me anyway). It's a really interesting discussion in sex differences, why it matters and how we should respond.

(NB agree that children should be treated as individuals first and foremost, but also acknowledge that some needs are driven by their sex).

I'd have a lot more sympathy with the 'boys mature later' angle if most actual adult men didn't expect the women in their lives to do all the organising and sorting for them.

DS 16 is a competent lad around the house and outside. Can iron, cook, dab hand with a hooover. Cottoned on pretty quick that girls aren't interested in unclean teeth, pits and pants.

But, he gives less than zero shits about stuff like Secret Santa and Christmas cards, as it seems do his male friends. They make casual arrangements to meet up, but don't seem to care if they don't.

Thread after thread about women taking the mental load at Christmas. The girls at school are the ones organising SS and sending umpteen Christmas cards.

If the girls enjoy that, grand. But maybe they need to realise now that it's what they're choosing to do.

DfE Bronze was interesting as the groups were gender split.

The boys organised themselves and bought cereal, milk, hot dogs, buns and Haribo. The girls were hauling around meals to make from scratch. DS said theirs smelled fab, but they had to wash stuff up and it was less time to play football or chill.

It's not an angle - boys do generally mature later than girls.

That wasn't even close to the point I was making.

That's a really interest read, and backs up my thoughts - people who choosing to make their lives more complicated (in this case often the girls) doesn't mean other people (in this case the boys) are failing when they don't live equally complicated lives.

My son could organise a secret santa but he has absolutely no desire to do so.

One of your points was that maturing later was an 'angle'.
I haven't commented on the other aspect of your post.

But it doesn't matter whether they mature later as we live in a society that mostly let's men get away with not maturing at all.

This thread is about teenage boys, not men, so the maturing later aspect is highly relevant.

I've personally opted out of a lot of the things that some females (and perhaps some males) choose to do, my life is simpler and happier. I realise that we allhave different lives and opportunities to remove ourselves from certain commitments, but some people (often women) expect other (often men, sometimes women or even kids) to also overstretch themselves just because they choose to do so. It's also up to us to make changes in our own lives and have realistic and open conversations about expectations in relationships.

I have DD15 and DS14 and I would say DS is much more able to work things out independently.

But in general yes I think we seem to accept boys/men being more dopey. I've no idea how they go on to run companies & be managers & earn higher salaries? I think in some cases it's selective incompetence.

I didn't say it wasn't relevant, I was looking at it in the context of wider society, which is allowed in discussions

Not sure about expectations but my DS aged 15 and his friends were much more capable of all you list in the OP than my DD and her friends.

It depends on the individuals!

I didn't suggest that you said it wasn't relevant, but calling it an 'angle' does appear to minimise how relevant it is.

This isn't the argument you think it is ...

Your eldest sister was the one who had to be most independent because of two younger siblings. She had to organise herself. Whilst the youngest had most help and intervention from mum to an older age ...

I have 1 of each. DS is 14. He is hopeless with arranging things with friends, and despite several reminders I had to accompany him to choose suggest a secret santa present (these are shops he could easily get to) He will likely need multiple reminders to actually wrap it.
DH outsources all sorts of admin/buying/wrapping presents to me or DD. DD usually charges him for any sort of wifework so they both benefit

My DC do secret santa in their forms at school and everybody takes part this isn't something a (female) pupil has instigated.

Also, fathers have a huge part to play, both in setting examples and reinforcing expectations

The problem usually arises because the fathers are often crap or absent so unfortunately, it's then up to the mother to bring up her son to be a competent man.
As mothers, we can only do our best but if we don't set our expectations from when they're young, then it's really hard, if not impossible, to do it when they're teens.
I've never wanted to be the family skivvy so I made sure I wasn't. It's not all happy families and we have our ups and downs and arguments like every other family but everyone has to do chores. There's just no choice in this matter. This pays back tenfold.

£50 says the organiser is a woman.

I think we do expect less, yes.

Having raised one of each I see a very common 'dopey' phase in boys between 11 - 13 that is mostly developmental. But I can't stand the way that gormlessness seems to be indulged long after they've grown out of it.

Although my boy is only 12 it's worrying to me when his same-age friends seem to have no idea how to cook a simple meal, do their own laundry (and a load of towels here and there too!), or manage their own admin. Not even complex stuff, just normal things like checking if their football kit has dried in time for tomorrow's game or getting a permission slip signed and paid in a timely manner.

Part of it is that absent-mindedness I mentioned but it also seems like very few families are letting the natural consequences fall to the kid, someone (often Mum) is saving them at every turn.

A fifteen year old is closer to adulthood than to childhood and needs to know how to manage basic daily life, not be cosseted like a spoilt toy dog. It sounds brutal but untrained puppies grow up into dangerous dogs, and unsocialised boys run the risk of growing up into men who are unsafe to women's physical and mental health. Maybe not in a criminal way but certainly in a way where some woman will presumably always be expected to manage the tedious minutiae of their lives.

I think SS is a red herring and it’s fair enough not to be interested in that. The boys in dds friendship group very much like having a social life though and it pisses me off that they seem to expect the girls to facilitate that 🙄🙄 Yes I am bitter as one of these lummocks irreparably damaged something at my dds last party

I have an older sister - she was actually coddled more than me.
One memorable example, when mum was in hospital - 'you might as well make my dinner if you are making your own anyway'. Also she routinely expected her dinner to be waiting when she came in the door, and if it wasn't then she 'wasn't hungry anyway', meanwhile I often ended up cooking for me and mum when I got home (and often checked with mum what we had in/what I needed to pick up on way home).