15yo boys - do we expect less of them than girls?

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We were chatting about a meet up she’d just been to, and dd(15) said something like “I just expect basic competence, I mean, that’s not even the bar, it’s way below the bar, but most of them just don’t have it”.

So I asked her what she meant, and it was stuff like able to organise a meet up (the girls always do it), to turn up with a secret Santa gift that they opted in to doing four weeks ago, to navigate (with a phone) and actually find places rather than walk for ages and then stand around looking puzzled, to work out how to pay in a shop which didn’t take cards.

Which made me wonder, is it just this group, or is it something societal where we expect 15yo girls to generally organise themselves and work things out, but where boys are still more looked after and supported? I nearly posted on Feminism chat, but I figured I’d only get answers around socialisation of boys there, and wondered what other people thought.

This sounds familiar, although tbh I've noticed the boys finding their own group a bit more these days and needing time away from the girls (nothing inherently 'wrong' with the girls but they do, on average, seem a little more easily excitable/dramatic and a bit draining at times).

And still can see mothers defending their sons above their daughters...

Society has definitely done a number on us.

Also interesting that they magically then become competent when it comes to being the law makers, etc as mentioned above.

And it continues - see thread after thread on here at the other end of the spectrum when they are 'grown up'.

Still a matter of maturity at 30? 40? 50? 60?...

Righto.

I think there is a level of misunderstanding on what “maturity” means. Every school and nursery can tell you that boys learn to speak or write later than the girls, they also start puberty later than the girls.

At 12 or 13 a girl has reached their final height while a boy may still be growing at 18.

If they are reaching biological milestones later, it is natural that there are some differences on how they behave.

I only have a DS, so can't make a direct comparison, but he's in a mixed friendship group of Y10 kids who decided to do secret Santa together. DS and one of the girls had theirs ready on time, and all the others weren't sorted so they had to delay. He's also (with a group of the boys) sorted booking cinema tickets and making plans for the last day of term next week.

I've always tried to make sure DS took responsibility for his own things in an age appropriate way, and now he's really good at having the right stuff for school on the right day, knowing when deadlines are for things, and planning ahead. I'm like that too, and I think it comes quite naturally to him.

Multiple factors but the later development is a significant one.

So...Biological differences are the reason for this?

Well said @Bobsyouraunty

But parenting also is a huge part of this.

Why is it that you have lots of 13 year old boys still to go through puberty who have been brought up with expectations to tidy their room who manage it whilst another who went through puberty fairly early still needs his mum to make his breakfast an put his clothes out for him?

I just don't believe it's remotely down to development. It's a contributing factor but the main driver is parental expectations from an early age.

But puberty is a biological thing and it does happen, on average, later for boys. So obviously thats not relevant at 30, 40 but it could be relevant if you were comparing a girl wwhowas 2 years further through the process than a boy.

I cant say my sons puberty impacted on dishwasher loading ability or his ability to get from a to b - but it did impact some emotional and cognition stuff. It is a period in which the brain changes massively. And he did magically become more competent as he came through it. He is supposed to.

If you give kids responsibility they will often respond to that. That's particularly true of kids with behavioural issues ironically.

Boys may biologically mature later than girls but that doesn't mean they can't be competent. A 3 yr old can do some chores.
I think doing chores from a young age is key to competency and things like paying for things, putting their own food orders in a restaurant in and speaking up.
Volunteer work helps too. They have to provide a cv, attend a casual interview and then attend weekly, learning skills.
These things don't really require a maturity but gives growth.

It's providing the opportunity to demonstrate responsibility and gradually develop skills.

Kids that are never expected to do anything are then put in a situation age 18 where they suddenly have to do everything if they go to university. And parents wonder why they can't.

We don't expect kids to write an essay age 3. But after years of practicing they can age 15.

Why are household chores and everyday life skills any different?

Boys and girls brains are different.

Haven’t studies shown that, whilst male and female bodies are differently biologically, brains are plastic and change/form largely due to environment?

Studies have also shown that boys are treated more leniently than girls from birth and throughout formative years. Girls are conditioned to meet boys’ needs, to help control them in school, to accept poor behaviour as normal.

Our patriarchal society has really done a number on women and girls.

Well, I had high expectations (and hopes) of one teen son but so far my expectations are not being met...getting him to do his share of chores/ cook/plan ahead/ think for himself is like pulling teeth. It's exhausting. I don't know if people generally have higher expectations of girls (I don't have any) but I did notice that, round my way, boys are just allowed to pretty much roam free at all hours from about 13 whereas girls are not. Many arguments in this house about why hanging out in the street late at night is not acceptable to me, which is hard because parents act like they have no jurisdiction over teen lads at all..
So boys get more freedom, but probably less responsibility.
I can't see myself as a teen girl being into secret Santa though so I can't relate to that one!

I believe there's a huge innate difference between boys and girls...I think denying that does a disservice to both. Like the school system is so geared to girls...whilst there are outliers, generally girls find it easier to sit and listen, they are neat and tidy in their work...boys are generally more physical. I remember picking my ds up from a disco party in year six. The girls were standing around talking and dancing...the boys were play fighting, wrestling on the floor. I do not totally buy the argument that it's due to nurture. Yes it may factor a bit but overwhelmingly I think it's nature.

It comes from school, from peers, from other parents and adults - but the main driver is parents not understanding that kids need to learn skills and that's their responsibility.

We have developed this idea that all educational responsibilities come from school and all skills should be taught by schools and tend to be academic not life lead.

It's madness.

You'd be surprised. My Y10's (so age 14/15) friendship group of around eight boys decided they wanted to do a secret Santa. Organised it and swapped gifts on Friday. By all accounts everyone showed up with an appropriate, wrapped gift and it worked really well.

I have no idea whether the boys all chose the gifts themselves, but I know my son chose what to get, I ordered it for him because his bank card isn't set up for online purchases, he transferred the money.

Perhaps his friendship group are unusual, but I suspect not.

If you go back over 100 years and look at the expectations and responsibilities that were placed on children, I think that tends to kick the idea of emotional maturity and puberty way into touch tbh.

My boys were pretty much like that at 15. Changed by 18 and were much more organised both at home and socially. I think it's just a case of being much less mature than girls of the same age.
They may look mature having grown overnight into giants, but the girls probably hit puberty a good three or four years before the boys.
What we never had with the boys was any hint of drama or discord within their groups.

Girls are expected to grow up faster. No question. They stop playing younger than boys. It's so sad to see.

Also, girls have to grow up faster in order to protect themselves from predatory men, sadly.

It's impossible to prove nature v nurture v society/culture. Societal influences start before birth. If boys had the same expectations then maybe they would be more mature earlier.

And actually I don't think society is more lenient on boys. I think boys from a young age are constantly being told off especially at school whereas girls are treated more leniently.

I remember a particularly spiteful girl at my dad's school who said some poisonous words to her...she didn't get told off...well the usual, kind words bullshit...but she was sweet and blonde blah blah.

The boys were far more likely to fight physically which obviously you can't allow but the school would come down like a ton of bricks on them. Even just running round, they are constantly told to stop. I think this physicality and aggression should be viewed as being a normal emotion and behaviour and then channelled in a positive way rather than constant telling off and trying to mould them into being something they aren't. I think denying masculinity actually turns it into toxic masculinity.

Denying masculinity?

I thought we were just talking about taking responsibility for basic chores...

generally girls find it easier to sit and listen, they are neat and tidy in their work...boys are generally more physical.
See I think this is very socialised as well, at least before puberty. I found sitting still very difficult as a child and was very physical, but girls are expected to be quiet and calm. One of my brothers was very academic and non physical but would have been playing with other boys, so acting as expected.

Yes that's why I said there are always outliers to every trend.