15yo boys - do we expect less of them than girls?

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We were chatting about a meet up she’d just been to, and dd(15) said something like “I just expect basic competence, I mean, that’s not even the bar, it’s way below the bar, but most of them just don’t have it”.

So I asked her what she meant, and it was stuff like able to organise a meet up (the girls always do it), to turn up with a secret Santa gift that they opted in to doing four weeks ago, to navigate (with a phone) and actually find places rather than walk for ages and then stand around looking puzzled, to work out how to pay in a shop which didn’t take cards.

Which made me wonder, is it just this group, or is it something societal where we expect 15yo girls to generally organise themselves and work things out, but where boys are still more looked after and supported? I nearly posted on Feminism chat, but I figured I’d only get answers around socialisation of boys there, and wondered what other people thought.

@TinPanSally weaponised incompetence, I haven’t heard thats phrase before but have met adult males like it.

DS was never going to be like that, he had to help from very young, as did I as a child in my parents Chinese takeaway. I insisted he get a job asap, that was resisted by DH. Not needed for the money but for character building. He did a paper round from 13 then got a job as a pot washer when he was in sixth form. He was taught to cook from a young age by me.

@TheaBrandt Though DS is mixed race as his Dad is white he has been raised very much Chinese style. I’m not like my parents, people would be horrified at how strict it was but it was still very different to his white friends. Much stricter. So I was interested in your comment about other cultures.

My culture is all about efficiency and not losing face, being incompetent is a way to lose peoples respect.

Because he’s been allowed to be

I don’t give a shit about secret Santa, and didn’t as a teen, but if I want to go to a meet up where that’s the deal I’d do it.

But the point here is not secret Santa, it’s an inability to consider other people and function socially.

If you have sons, don’t let them grow up like your husband.

Friends of her school friends. I must ask her what her friends think of the boys, they keep meeting up (this was the first one dd went to), so they must get something from it.

Its good that she expects better, but there are good lads out there who have been parented well and are capable and responsible.

With so many examples of incompetent, arsehole males (and some females) in my family, I always tell my daughter to not tar them all with the same brush but to be incredibly picky with who she has as friends and who she dates. My son too. Their bar is high. 🤣

There was a thread here a while ago where a woman's DH asked her to make a list for him for the after school routine for their DC. The amount of women that said just make a list to help him out and make life easier was scary. This is where it stems. Stop infantalising your husbands, it sets a bad example to your sons!

I don't want to put the blame on women but if we keep doing everything for men they just learn uselessness.

The culture was HK Chinese

My Dh does what I do organises presents does house work does emotional labour. He is better at shopping with them than me. My dad and both bils are the same. So depressing as this is our girls “normal” and now our girls interacting with men outside our family they are baffled at how shit they are.

I have 2 teen ds. They and their friends are not like this at all.
They do chores, organise meet ups with friends. Most of the meet-ups are cinema, Nando's or a game of football.
My older ds has a part time job and treated his siblings to a takeaway yesterday after building ikea furniture for his room.
Younger ds is studying for GCSEs and still does all his chores and volunteering.

They wouldn't care about secret santas but all supported a friend who lost his dad by organising cards and flowers for the family themselves and turning up to the funeral.

They're decent competent boys and not being able to pay for things in a shop without a card or to get to places is laughable.

DS is just 15, he can organise meet-ups with friends, book tickets for events and take himself across London to get there. I don't think Secret Santa is something they'd do in his friendship groups (most aren't culturally Christian) but he does sort it out when we do it as a family. He is a great gift buyer and has proactively bought Xmas gifts for the family for the past two years out of his own money.

I think the most unattractive thing in a man is a lack of social awareness, consideration and generosity for others. Gift buying is a real thing for me. Men who opt out of that don't deserve anyone to pick it up for them. Luckily his dad has always role-modelled them that well (he is lavish gifter for us - rather shit when it comes to friends and other family though)

Housework he is not so good at but he does sort his own laundry and keep his room tidy.

I don't recognise my sons in what you describe, DS1 is 15. They can both cook, clean, keep their room nice. Plan things with friends and are on top of their schoolwork.

They are more likely to arrange to go to the gym, swimming, book a basketball court though. They wouldn't be interested in meeting up and going shopping etc.

Good to hear there are some decent ones might be a “posh boy” thing dd1 knows some decent lads dd2 socialises with a different demographic

I don’t think we expect less of them, but I do think that sometimes we expect them to act like girls and that’s not how they function or were brought up to be. We expect things iif boys also that are not expected from girls.

My son had never had any problem finding his way in a city with a phone or finding alternative ways to pay. But it will be as interested in Secret Santa as your DD will be about discussing what the England team could have done better in the last World Cup.

I strongly suggest you read “Why men can’t ask questions and women can’t read maps”, that book is an eye opener to how our upbringing and biological differences make us different.

I have 3 boys and a girl, all teens. My boys are as competent as my daughter...maybe because their father models competence and helps a lot around the house. They can all cook, do laundry etc and the eldest went wild camping after his GCSEs and hiked in the Alps after A levels - all planned, executed and navigated by a group of boys.

They do mature later than girls generally, but maybe if one expects more from them than society generally does, they step up to the mark. (Their school is also very hot on building resilience, leadership skills and team building)

I don't recognise either of my teen boys (nearly 16 and 13) in this. Both more than capable of finding places alone, getting a bus somewhere, buying things, making own plans etc.

However, the number of people who say their teen boy wouldn't be interested or partake in Secret Santa or shopping trips I don't relate to either.

I suspect that ds1 would turn up to a shopping trip dressed as Santa himself, with gifts he'd bought for a group of 20 if the idea was suggested by a girl he fancied 😂

I've seen the phrase 'weaponized incompetence' twice in this thread and I admit I don't fully understand it. 'Incompetence' I get but 'weaponized' ? Can someone please explain? Thankyou.

@TheTecknician
Isn't it like doing the ironing and purposely burning something, so you're not asked to do it again?

Weaponising incompetence...

So you do expect less of them then.

Societal norm creating a problem that ends up being resolved by females shock.

It's parenting. All my dc, boys as well as girls, were doing the things listed in the OP by age 15. Even the autistic one, who could not organise anything at 12 - not even get themselves organised to make scrambled eggs - could sort out a Secret Santa by 15. Because we actively taught the skills they did not pick up through general participation in life.

Hmm I don't think this is really an explanation as so many people still often expect more from a 13 year old girl compared to a 16 year old boy in terms of organisation and contribution to the household. Even in 2023.

Thier father helps? Who is he helping? Isn't he just doing his fair share?

Being shit at things deliberately so you’re not asked again. See various posts about dhs of he doesn’t even know how to turn on the washing machine/he didn’t put the freezer food away/he fucked up some basic task

Do they”mature later” or is less expected of them?

This.

On average girls mature earlier.
On average boys have much less interest in the things you describe than girls do.
I think both sexes can be quite mollycoddled/sheltered, but I've always tried to encourage age appropriate understanding and responsibility as part of parenting.

Exactly. As you want to make a point by missing the rest of what I was saying, he helps out by doing his fair share, as every one of this family does.