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Original poster

15yo boys - do we expect less of them than girls?

162 replies

3Tunes · 17/12/2023 08:41

We were chatting about a meet up she’d just been to, and dd(15) said something like “I just expect basic competence, I mean, that’s not even the bar, it’s way below the bar, but most of them just don’t have it”.

So I asked her what she meant, and it was stuff like able to organise a meet up (the girls always do it), to turn up with a secret Santa gift that they opted in to doing four weeks ago, to navigate (with a phone) and actually find places rather than walk for ages and then stand around looking puzzled, to work out how to pay in a shop which didn’t take cards.

Which made me wonder, is it just this group, or is it something societal where we expect 15yo girls to generally organise themselves and work things out, but where boys are still more looked after and supported? I nearly posted on Feminism chat, but I figured I’d only get answers around socialisation of boys there, and wondered what other people thought.

OP posts:
SomewhatMental · 17/12/2023 11:47

I do think you have a point, and especially your DD. She sounds very intelligent. I am a mum of two DSs and have no daughters. They are 11 and 7, eldest DS has ‘high functioning’ autism and attends mainstream secondary school. The girls at DS’s secondary school have really made life so much easier for him starting at a new school, little things like reminding him where he has to be and reminding him of events at school, I think he would still remember these things by himself, but I think at times he does come across as a bit helpless even though he isn’t! I say this as DH is in bed with a cold, bedridden for 3 days, whereas I have been working and parenting non stop with the same cold. There is just far more pressure on us girls to be everything to everyone. I wish it wasn’t this way and I am going to really try my best to correct this ‘learnt helplessness’ issue out of my boys (but then, perhaps their dad is part of the issue!)

Looksonthebrightside · 17/12/2023 12:05

My boys are completely different - one would be completely on top of stuff like this, the other one would need reminding and help! Both brought up with the same expectation (ie functional useful human beings).

ChevyCamaro · 17/12/2023 12:16

Mothers are always blamed for their sons behaviours but imo it's fathers who are more to blame ( either by being crap or absent) If boys don't see men stepping up, they won't either. Whereas girls are always seeing women "do" for everybody, so they model that as they grow up.

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Christmas
Original poster
3Tunes · 17/12/2023 13:16

ChevyCamaro · 17/12/2023 11:38

generally girls find it easier to sit and listen, they are neat and tidy in their work...boys are generally more physical.
See I think this is very socialised as well, at least before puberty. I found sitting still very difficult as a child and was very physical, but girls are expected to be quiet and calm. One of my brothers was very academic and non physical but would have been playing with other boys, so acting as expected.

This interested me because dd finds it harder to sit still and concentrate properly when she’s not done enough high intensity exercise. Which for her is about 8 hours a week. It makes no difference to her ability to organise herself, do chores etc though.

OP posts:
Original poster
3Tunes · 17/12/2023 13:19

@ChevyCamaro Forgot to add that your point about the stage where you are having to endlessly remind, enforce, reinforce, introduce a consequence to get it done, then do the same whole rigmarole the next day are very familiar. That’s not just boys!

OP posts:
JamSandle · 17/12/2023 13:23

I think boys generally are more coddled, although you definitely get pampered princess daughters.

Not sure why this is.

alwayslearning789 · 17/12/2023 14:05

3Tunes · 17/12/2023 08:41

We were chatting about a meet up she’d just been to, and dd(15) said something like “I just expect basic competence, I mean, that’s not even the bar, it’s way below the bar, but most of them just don’t have it”.

So I asked her what she meant, and it was stuff like able to organise a meet up (the girls always do it), to turn up with a secret Santa gift that they opted in to doing four weeks ago, to navigate (with a phone) and actually find places rather than walk for ages and then stand around looking puzzled, to work out how to pay in a shop which didn’t take cards.

Which made me wonder, is it just this group, or is it something societal where we expect 15yo girls to generally organise themselves and work things out, but where boys are still more looked after and supported? I nearly posted on Feminism chat, but I figured I’d only get answers around socialisation of boys there, and wondered what other people thought.

More power to the younger generation of girls who are calling this out for what it is.

We really need to examine ourselves as the mothers of the next generation(s), given the power we have to teach and guide our boys.

RhymesWithOrange · 17/12/2023 14:18

We really need to examine ourselves as the mothers of the next generation(s), given the power we have to teach and guide our boys.

Also, fathers have a huge part to play, both in setting examples and reinforcing expectations

RhymesWithOrange · 17/12/2023 14:20

SomewhatMental · 17/12/2023 11:47

I do think you have a point, and especially your DD. She sounds very intelligent. I am a mum of two DSs and have no daughters. They are 11 and 7, eldest DS has ‘high functioning’ autism and attends mainstream secondary school. The girls at DS’s secondary school have really made life so much easier for him starting at a new school, little things like reminding him where he has to be and reminding him of events at school, I think he would still remember these things by himself, but I think at times he does come across as a bit helpless even though he isn’t! I say this as DH is in bed with a cold, bedridden for 3 days, whereas I have been working and parenting non stop with the same cold. There is just far more pressure on us girls to be everything to everyone. I wish it wasn’t this way and I am going to really try my best to correct this ‘learnt helplessness’ issue out of my boys (but then, perhaps their dad is part of the issue!)

This is kind of them but again reinforces the role of women and girls as support humans for males.

What a shame that his male friends are not similarly stepping up.

furtivetussling · 17/12/2023 14:48

weaponised incompetence

lol 😂

bombastix · 17/12/2023 14:48

Maybe. But the thing do tell the girls is that the clueless ones are the same ones are the ones who will, over your lifetime of relationships, expect the girls to pick up the slack.

There are a generation of girls who are pretty sharp on this stuff and it is good to see

Perhapsanorhertimewouldbebetter · 17/12/2023 14:53

JamSandle · 17/12/2023 13:23

I think boys generally are more coddled, although you definitely get pampered princess daughters.

Not sure why this is.

I know of lots more 'princess syndrome' daughters than coddled sons - some of them have no idea how the real world works!

HamBone · 17/12/2023 15:02

My DS (15) looks like a man but is emotionally still a child. He does regular chores, but needs reminding and sometimes nagging to get himself organized. He’s v. different to DD (18) who suddenly matured at 15 1/2 and is now v. independent.

DS can be independent, but hadn’t yet grasped the necessity, he wants Mum and Dad to coddle him for as long as possible…but we’re not keen to. 😂

TroglodytesTroglodytes · 17/12/2023 15:03

I have two teenage boys. Cannot believe that they would be interested in something like secret Santa, but even to me that sounds like a work thing that middle aged people get roped into. They probably just said yes to it and then instantly forgot about secret Santa. Even when younger my boys never bothered writing Christmas cards to hand out at school, my daughter loved writing and receiving cards.

piscofrisco · 17/12/2023 15:05

I have two dss's and two DD's. I'm agog at how much my stepsons can't do and how much they don't even want to be independent. They are a bit younger, at 12 and 10 but at that age my DD's could make their own lunch, go to the shop, get on a bus, get their clothes ready for school or sport. The DSS's can do none of these things. It's hard in our case as half the time we aren't parenting them and we can't comment on what goes on at the other house. But when your 12 year old still has his packed lunch grapes cut in half for him, you have to wonder!

Newbutoldfather · 17/12/2023 15:06

I think that, on average, girls do mature faster. They hit puberty earlier and the neuronal pruning, which helps organisation, thus also happens earlier.

There is also lower expectations on boys, I think, which further reinforces the basic biology.

In schools, though, you do get some very on-it boys and some girls who regularly bring history books to a physics lesson. But, statistically, girls are definitely more organised.

MissyB1 · 17/12/2023 15:07

Sigh another boy bashing thread…. And then we wonder why there are so many gender disappointment threads about being pregnant with a boy. It’s constantly reinforced on this forum that’s there’s a problem with boys.

Kids are individuals, and maybe just maybe the OP’s dd’s friends were going along with her plans because she bosses them into stuff? But they weren’t committed because they didn’t really want to be? There are boys who are great organisers and boys who aren’t, same with girls!

MintJulia · 17/12/2023 15:10

I have a ds15 and he's definitely less mature than I was at his age.

I was already planning my departure from home, earning money etc. He's less independent but clearer in what he wants to do for a living. Better at bureaucracy. Less nervous or stressed.

He's not very tidy, but neither was I at that age.

MeMySonAnd1 · 17/12/2023 15:14

I am one of three sisters. My older sister is and was since a very young age mega organised, never forgets a thing and very tidy.

I have become very tidy with age but I was always the one that had order in her chaos. I used to be super disorganised but managed not to mess up.

My younger sister has always been very lazy, very social and good in her career. My mum is still doing everything for her and bailing her out even when sister is in her 40s.

We all had the same mum: a mean take no shit headteacher all
kids in school were afraid of.

The nurture vs nature question should not be seen as one that can be answered in black and white.

SomeoneYouLoved · 17/12/2023 15:23

I think it very much depends on circumstances, my two sons are independent and capable, my husband died young, so they've had to grow up fast, no choice.
I think the mistake girls/women make is expecting boys/men to behave and think like they do. Men are not people pleasers or martyrs where most women are, even if they don't realise it.

Original poster
3Tunes · 17/12/2023 15:34

Kids are individuals, and maybe just maybe the OP’s dd’s friends were going along with her plans because she bosses them into stuff? But they weren’t committed because they didn’t really want to be? There are boys who are great organisers and boys who aren’t, same with girls!

You’ve made some assumptions there. And used a word (bossy) that is only used about women and girls. It sounds like you’re trying to find a reason why it’s ok and expected for boys to behave this way.

For what it’s worth, dd neither organised the meet up nor took part in or organised the secret santa. Both were opt in, so nobody had to be there or take part.

OP posts:
Oblomov23 · 17/12/2023 15:44

Yes brain develops at different rates. But, Both my ds's have bought nice ss gifts for a girl in their tutor group, every year. Both my ds's have weekly jobs to do. I don't recognise that incapable label.

Perhapsanorhertimewouldbebetter · 17/12/2023 16:08

@3Tunes the word bossy is most definitely not only used to describe females - I've heard it used for both males and females.

Also, we shouldn't be trying to make boys like girls, instead we should be encouraging and supporting them to develop into balanced and happy humans.

As already stated, I've met as many coddled girls as Ihave boys.

Mouldyfoodhelp · 17/12/2023 16:17

This just feels a weird thread I can imagine complaining people are disorganised when younger but it definitely wasn't a gender thing.

I struggle to think in this day and age teenagers wouldn't know how to pay especially with contactless card/ phones and money is taught in primary school.

I think it's more how the child is raised it's all anecdotal obviously but similarly I'm sure we all know teenage girls that have done stuff and boys that were sensible.

Often teenagers make excuses for things they don't wanna do

MissyB1 · 17/12/2023 16:41

3Tunes · 17/12/2023 15:34

Kids are individuals, and maybe just maybe the OP’s dd’s friends were going along with her plans because she bosses them into stuff? But they weren’t committed because they didn’t really want to be? There are boys who are great organisers and boys who aren’t, same with girls!

You’ve made some assumptions there. And used a word (bossy) that is only used about women and girls. It sounds like you’re trying to find a reason why it’s ok and expected for boys to behave this way.

For what it’s worth, dd neither organised the meet up nor took part in or organised the secret santa. Both were opt in, so nobody had to be there or take part.

Edited

Err… maybe you’ve never heard boys being called bossy but I have! And my DH’s nickname in cubs apparently was “mr bossy boots”!

it’s not about “excuses for boys” it’s about pointing out that just because your dd has complained about the boys in her friendship group doesn’t mean there’s a general issue with boys being disorganised!