“We fail students by indulging their fragilities” - Libby Purves in the Times

[CruCru]

I read this thing by Libby Purves in the Times: [[We fail students by indulging their fragilities

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5dbf29f2-857e-41ce-8c78-028a513ab8f9?shareToken=c41320dec7bfb802e039b5c8bc3b513f

I found it very interesting. “Whatever the failings of postwar stiffness - it had plenty - at least that generation was more prepared than most modern children for the shocking fact that once education’s over, the wide world really doesn’t care about your feelings. Rules and systems should prevent bullying, but preserving your comfort zone is of interest only to parents and faithful friends. As far as everyone else is concerned, it’s up to you to be useful.”

I remember at work being taken aback at how much harder work some of the new graduates were than when I started. I wonder, though, if part of that was that they’d had to do so much more to get the job. My A levels were respectable but my old university wouldn’t give me a place these days. So much is expected of young people.

We were told that even with a strong family history of SEN - it was unlikely or that they couldn't access help as other were worse - or when they did get help it often wasn't high quality well research activities but often stuff that didn't help or we were already doing at home.

So we helped at home - but I got told on here we were terrible parents as we couldn't afford the 650 dyslexia assessment at time I was I struggled to afford my prescription charge for meds each month.

DD1 sat on a list wating assessment for two year before aging out - there are no adult one here- she now in another part of country and is back on another likely 2 year list. Her friend went though private route cost her parenst 3.5 K.

Even pushing there didn't seem to be access to support and services in their schools - any focus was on on kids who were disruptive.

My youngest and also say least affected by sensory issues - is really struggling because the school environment is so bad at minute - access to toilets, having somewhere to eat and lesson noise quiet enough to learn all seem not to be there and as behaviour deteriorates more and more who had previously coped start not to.

This is obviously a real problem. These are adults who are achieving in that they managed to get to university, not young adults who have dropped out of school and too anxious to leave the house. If there are such major issues for those who are achieving, god knows what is going to happen in our workplaces. There is no way workplaces can accommodate this level of mental health problems.

CormorantStrikesBack
I saw similar when I did a course as a mature student. It blew my mind that someone would come straight out of an undergraduate degree and feel entitled to tell the module leaders and academics what work they would be doing, if they were attending class, when in the year they wanted to hand their assessments in. One term someone told me they were going to get an extension because Christmas is a good time to get overtime at work and the tutors wouldn't be able to say no to them requesting an extension. 🤯

I saw something similar as a professional tutor when it came to giving feedback on work placement on HE courses. Some students are very reluctant to take constructive feedback and quick to point the finger or have excuses why they aren't doing the minimum requirements.

It's worlds away from the majority of GCSE and post 16 students I've worked with. The relationships were mutually respectful, we put in place reasonable adjustments and when parents need support and backing to try to access services we always supported too.

I find myself wondering if there's something going on in HE at the moment.

I find myself wondering if there's something going on in HE at the moment.

Yes absolutely there is something going on in HE atm. Staff are overrun with admin, receiving work emails at midnight, and having nervous breakdowns. And that’s before they have started teaching! And students aren’t getting sufficient feedback or their essays marked. University is no longer a place you go to research and contemplate ideas, and learn how to think, it’s a pressurised exam factory that lands you with significant debt just when you are starting out in life.

The thing is: what people perceive as entitled, needy, lazy behaviour from students is sometimes a reflection of the stressful circumstances they find themselves in. Mental fragility doesn’t occur as frequently in environments which are organised, open, well managed, supportive, imaginative and conducive to growth. So before we write off an entire generation, let’s acknowledge that some of the schools, universities and work places our teens and young adults find themselves in, aren’t exactly bending themselves towards their needs either! They are largely focused on the bottom line, to the detriment of most other considerations, with the top 4% creaming profits off the top.

@Sheepskinthrow although all that is true, I am of a generation that started work after school and were frequently working in disorganised and stressful workplaces.

There’s a really good book called How Universities Die which explores the neoliberal induced crisis of HE. Well worth a read.

Supported our son through school as did his teachers. I explained to him that he would have to proactively seek out help at university if he was really stuck but was expected to think for himself.

Six months into his first year covid lockdown hit he had to come home for six months, he really did need to work solo then. The second year again patchy because of COVID but he decided to stay in halls with his girlfriend.

They're an anomaly as graduates I do wonder if that makes them better employees because they didn't get to socialise much. Our sons boss thinks he's brilliant but son I think has itchy feet now and wants to live a little. I suspect he and girlfriend will up sticks next year. They're too serious IMO

But that’s part of my point mantyzer. Workplaces are frequently hideous places to work too, especially if you are working somewhere like a call centre or on the retail floor. How many threads have there been on Mumsnet about people not being able to take medication during their shift or change their sanitary towels? It’s bordering on inhuman.

The power of unions have been reduced hugely. The balance of power has swung massively towards the employer.

We have all seen the ridiculous job adverts that demand vast experience, “flexibility“ in working hours, fluency in three languages, commitment and passion but where the salary is appalling and you have to provide your own transport.

As an employer, I understand more than most the need for staff to put in a decent day’s work, but overall, I am delighted that younger generations are being slightly less amenable than we were in the workplace, and challenging out dated notions such as presentiism , and if they need special provisions, and we can accommodate them, why should we not if it helps them get the job done?

Everywhere I’ve worked has been chaotic. 10 years in small companies where people were sacked for breathing wrongly.

25 years in teaching, which although it had a semblance of structure was still chaotic due to time issues.

I’ve never worked anywhere calm or relaxing.

It's the other way round. We now expect AAB in many subjects to get into good unis. Much higher than when we went. This excessive grade inflation of offers has pushed students beyond their limits and into stress. You don't need practically three A's to study a lot of subjects. More for a phd.

It just causes excessive mental health issues that the uni's have to suddenly provide for. It's impossible. You get hot housed to get 3A's. Then we fling you out into the unknown world alone and pit you against everyone else with 3A's.

It's very stressful. At 18. It's madness. I've taught for 30 years at Uni and the intelligence hasn't gone up but the stress levels have. With higher grades comes stress. You can't easily have Saturday jobs and a social life and get 3 A's. Some can, but most can't.

So something has to give. It's not unis at fault.

Everyone should have to travel or get jobs for a year at 19 before uni. Help you adapt to work and independent uni life.

All of this^^

@ChevyCamaro exactly this.

It starts in schools carries on at 6th form colleges. And at Uni. We have pushed them into an underfunded exam factory. Thank you tories.
Tories have ruined the NHS, the economy and Education. And are currently trying to make us all racist too. The joys.

I do recommend weekend and holiday jobs for confidence, money and structure. My son moaned about colleagues that were lazy when I went to pick him up. I told him that's life, there's conscientious people and lazy buggers who skate through life everywhere. Just rise above it.

I have been reading the other threads on the go about deferring reception aged pupils because of some nebulous fear that they "won't cope" or aren't "emotionally ready" and it made me think of this thread. I think it's all part of the same idea, that children can't possibly be expected to cope with minor difficulties in life. Children do have to learn to adjust from nursery to reception; most are fine, but yes, there may be a few tears and tantrums along the way. Yes, many children progress seamlessly from nursery to reception but those that don't are not unusual, nor is it something that normally needs huge amount of concern or worry - even if it's not fun whilst you go through those few months.

Yes, anxiety about transitions is normal but all the minimising really isn't helpful to those of us who have DC experiencing problems at the severe end.

Panicking isn't helpful but neither is being dismissed.

I think Generation Xers, late Millennials are largely the cause of this though, we have been the ones to create and profit from the Smart phone (obviously not all of us literally) and software that monitors, evaluates and provides feedback on our young person's performance every day when they are in schools/colleges. That level of surveillance is anxiety inducing and stops young people taking risks, in case it is captured and comes back to haunt them for an internship or UCAS application etc. My youth (late teens) was mid to late 90s and my friends and I took loads of risks, we were in to everything, we were Polymaths, we were in bands, acted in plays, discussed politics, music, designed artwork, made films. Much of it probably wasn't great but we had freedom to pursue our curiosity, we didn't give a second thought to our job prospects in doing these things and whether we would fail and it be recorded, we certainly didn't involve our parents as we were young adults. I worry for my 16 year old and 12 year old DD as I tried to afford them a childhood that was led by their curiosities and stimulated their imagination but obviously as they have become independent they get to choose their direction and I don't see my 16 year old doing half as much as me, even though he lives in a much cooler place than I did. He loves music and plays the guitar but he says he's not good enough to be in a band - well he's better than me and his friends play the drums and bass guitar but it doesn't really occur to them to just try something. I feel too much time is spent in bed or on the phone scrolling through reels. DS is quite political though and can discuss this with you as if you are talking to a much older person. He's adept at most things so I feel it is such a waste of youth. Ultimately, I think we are pretty much to blame and we have taken a lot from them.

I was talking with H about this thread today and yes the constant testing and pressure to get into 'top' Unis is awful both for teachers and students and indeed some parents. There seems to be this thing that your life is over if you don't get this and it's particularly prevalent in the middle and middle upper classes . It really isn't- there are many ways to earn a decent living- the average building site supervisor or good electrician is earning more than someone with a bog standard office role. Yep if you are going to be a doctor or a lawyer or vet , then you will want to get into a good Uni- as you can't practice without that high end degree- but people need to stop catastrophising - there are many ways to skin a rabbit- work experience and go back at 25 if you want to, apprenticeships, FE college - my son has 5 years more experience now than his graduate friends and not one employer in IT is interested in a degree - they want to know his technical skills, his junior project management experience etc

Social media and constant surveillance is a big issue. Teenagers should not be being tracked by parents everywhere on their phones. Or demanding regular phone calls from older teenagers on nights out to check in.
A lot of children have been taught the world is a dangerous place. Young people need to be aware of risks and how to navigate them, but they also need to be brave and take risks.

We fail students a whole lot more by not providing them with timely and accessible mental health support.

Students have far more access to mental health support than any other students have had in the past.

Suggest everyone reads Lisa Damour or listens to her podcast.

Teenagers are under so much more pressure now
because they know every bit of news that happens in the world and they know what’s happening with every single person they know, they literally face an onslaught of information via their phones.

And also, they face much more pressure academically.

The example Lisa Damour uses is that in the 70s, the admission rate for Harvard or Stanford was 31%, whereas nowadays it is 4%.

Our expectations of teens have grown exponentially and at the same time they have fewer opportunities to try things and fail.

@mantyzer students at my DD's uni typically have to wait a month or more to see a university counsellor.

A three month wait is common at universities. This often means that the student has to drop out.

It's a bit like services for pregnancy having a wait time of over 9 months.

Not to mention that most young people who need to see CAHMS are unable to. Mental health support for children and young adults is WOEFUL and a disgrace to the UK.

because they know every bit of news that happens in the world and they know what’s happening with every single person they know, they literally face an onslaught of information via their phones.

I often see this said but strangely I think my teens have had less incidental exposure to news despite access to screens than DH and I had growing up.

Our parents would watch news bullet and weather reports - we'd sit though Newsround to watch kids program after and before - digital TV they don't have to and we can look straight at weather reports on-line.

We don't get papers as regularly - and rely more on radio for incidental news or actively seek it out with you tube news snippets - our older two teens do this as well getting Alexa to do news bullets.

DD2 has least interest in politics or news - I have tried buying publications specifically for her - she still knows more than her friends because radio 4 is often on in background and we try and sit an eat together and other ask questions. She is frequently surprise by what her friends don't know - plus school must agree somewhat as they've signed up to some digital paper for them all.

Our kids and most of their friends and family if other parts of UK have found college a marked improvement - but then they look at next steps and grades needed are often daunting or unclear what next step is.

That’s interesting Shrammed yes I see that.

It seems that as well as being inundated with “news” that is focused on their particular algorithm then, they are not forced to confront a more “balanced” objective version.