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“We fail students by indulging their fragilities” - Libby Purves in the Times

235 replies

CruCru · 06/12/2023 09:16

I read this thing by Libby Purves in the Times: [[We fail students by indulging their fragilities

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5dbf29f2-857e-41ce-8c78-028a513ab8f9?shareToken=c41320dec7bfb802e039b5c8bc3b513f

I found it very interesting. “Whatever the failings of postwar stiffness - it had plenty - at least that generation was more prepared than most modern children for the shocking fact that once education’s over, the wide world really doesn’t care about your feelings. Rules and systems should prevent bullying, but preserving your comfort zone is of interest only to parents and faithful friends. As far as everyone else is concerned, it’s up to you to be useful.”

I remember at work being taken aback at how much harder work some of the new graduates were than when I started. I wonder, though, if part of that was that they’d had to do so much more to get the job. My A levels were respectable but my old university wouldn’t give me a place these days. So much is expected of young people.

We fail students by indulging their fragilities

With feelings valued above all and diagnoses for anxiety rocketing, young people are being ill prepared for a tough world

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5dbf29f2-857e-41ce-8c78-028a513ab8f9?shareToken=c41320dec7bfb802e039b5c8bc3b513f

OP posts:
ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 06/12/2023 10:54

cardibach · 06/12/2023 10:50

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow could you explain how this works? My Dd has severe sensory processing issues particularly around hearing. She can go to a concert because she chooses to do it. She can’t cope with being forced into an environment where doors scrape, or there’s constant background noise ?
I understood that if noise was a processing issue it would always be. I’m a teacher and have worked with many ND students and that’s what I’ve observed - some will go to gigs but wearing ear defenders, none have been able to cope with noise just because they want to (I’m not getting at you or your DD incidentally - I’m well aware things work differently for different people. I’d just like to understand further).

I don’t understand it either, but this is what she tells me. I think a concert is just one focused noise.

Whereas school had footsteps, doors, bells, chatter, shouting, clanking crockery in the canteen. It was the variety of houses that cause overwhelm. She’d never go to a ‘disco’

Also music is often soothing to ND, so they seem to be able to tolerate that loudly.

TeenDivided · 06/12/2023 10:56

I think it's both.

We do young people no favours by treating them with kid gloves and pathologising normal emotions.

However we also need to support people with ND / SpLD / MH issues to be the best they can be. (And I speak as a parent of 2 DC that fall into this group.)

The difficulty e.g. for uni tutors is distinguishing what is needed in any situation.

I also agree the reason more MC children have diagnoses is that their parents have the money to circumnavigate waiting lists.

RoseAndRose · 06/12/2023 10:57

Reallybadidea · 06/12/2023 10:42

While I do agree with some of her individual points, I thought overall it showed absolute contempt for young people, who as a generation have it pretty hard in many ways. I would have thought that given her own family's difficulties that she might have been a bit more sympathetic towards today's young adults.

I think the background - her 23 year old son died by suicide in 2006 - is what makes her views worth reading.

Nicholas was reported to have had severe depression for several years.

So she damned well knows the difference between a MH condition and the more passing emotions. And she may well be right that pathologising normal emotional reactions might not be a good thing

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 06/12/2023 10:57

gotomomo · 06/12/2023 10:52

I said on another thread only earlier today that 2 of the important things we need to teach our young people are resilience and flexibility, both I observe as lacking in many including one of my DD's and my dsd. Plus everything is a medical condition, trying to explain that it's absolutely normal to feel sad, at a loss and concerned following a death in the family was met with aghast, they seemed to think they needed pills to "fix it" no sadness sometimes just is sadness.

‘Resilience’🙄

I hated that word as a teacher and hate it now in terms of children.

It just means telling them to shut up and put up. And why should they?

RashOfBees · 06/12/2023 10:57

These things always say they don’t mean people who REALLY have problems, while simultaneously implying that most diagnoses are bogus. How do we assess who really has a problem? And who ‘lacks resilience’? Where is the dividing line and how do we find it?

I have anxiety - and, no, I do not mention it on application forms due to precisely the type of prejudice in the article, where anxiety apparently renders you unemployable - but it’s not so serious I’ve ever been hospitalised or similar. So perhaps I’m really just lacking in resilience?

I read something similar recently with an example about fragile students who don’t want to give presentations. Which just brought to mind a student who killed herself due to anxiety brought on by presentations.

So I thought the article was terrible. Unless you have a way of divining who is ‘genuinely’ struggling, opinions like these just stigmatise everyone who doesn’t enjoy perfect mental health.

jgw1 · 06/12/2023 10:59

CruCru · 06/12/2023 10:14

She also said that special learning difficulties diagnoses are twice as high in richer areas than poor ones. I was surprised at this - not because middle class parents are good at getting help for their children but because I’d expect schools to notice when children are struggling (even in poor areas). Am I being naive?

The cost of a private ed psych appointment and assessment is in the order of £750. The wait time for an appointment with a community ed psych is....

LeRougeEtLeNoir · 06/12/2023 10:59

CruCru · 06/12/2023 10:14

She also said that special learning difficulties diagnoses are twice as high in richer areas than poor ones. I was surprised at this - not because middle class parents are good at getting help for their children but because I’d expect schools to notice when children are struggling (even in poor areas). Am I being naive?

I’m afraid you are been naive yes. Schools/teachers are already in their knees. There is no support at all (having tried to get through CAMS and a SALT with my own dc in a deprived area… and that was quite a few years ago) and as a whole schools in deprived areas get mess money per pupils than the more privileged ones….
Plus when you are dealing with John and Alex who live in a dysfunctional family with DV or no food or heating, little Adam that seems to be easily distracted/is very quiet/fidget all the time or has no friends isn’t top of your list any way.

Also the huge increase in diagnosis is something that really needs to be looked at. It’s not just better awareness Imo.

RoseAndRose · 06/12/2023 10:59

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 06/12/2023 10:57

‘Resilience’🙄

I hated that word as a teacher and hate it now in terms of children.

It just means telling them to shut up and put up. And why should they?

It shouldn't mean that.

I should mean learning to cope

Because life is going to throw both good things and utter shitty things at us, and it's important to learn to deal with that. So speaking up in effective ways when something is wrong, because you are seeking to change it, is very much part of resilience.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 06/12/2023 11:03

RoseAndRose · 06/12/2023 10:59

It shouldn't mean that.

I should mean learning to cope

Because life is going to throw both good things and utter shitty things at us, and it's important to learn to deal with that. So speaking up in effective ways when something is wrong, because you are seeking to change it, is very much part of resilience.

Tbh, it made no difference teaching it at secondary. My y11 were simultaneously cynical and hilarious about it.

10 minutes ‘mindfulness’ in form really really helped with pressure of GCSE…. not. ‘Yeah miss, we’re meant to be resilient’

Maybe take some of the pressure off young people would enable more resilience.

Octavia64 · 06/12/2023 11:06

My Dad started work in the 60s.

There were so many jobs that if someone pissed him off he'd give notice and walk into a new job the next Monday.

If stuff made him anxious or he didn't want to do it he just didn't. All the employers knew that the shortages meant finding another job was easy.

The employers then whinged about resilience as well.

These days new grads don't want to work themselves to the bone for a company that will treat them like shit.

Staff shortages mean that it is easier than it has been in the past to find a new job if the job conditions are shit. That's why everyone is leaving teaching and the NHS.

My school was whinging about teachers should be more resilient as well - no, maybe you should stop making up random extra paperwork that has no impact on the kids so everyone leaves for a different school or country or profession.

N4ish · 06/12/2023 11:08

I think resilience in itself is a worthwhile trait for everyone to have but it's been turned into a tool where people are blamed for not being personally strong enough to cope. It shifts the blame away from societal problems and puts it firmly on the shoulders of the people least able to deal with things.

shmivorytower · 06/12/2023 11:09

I work in HE. We should do everything we can to support and achieve equity for disabled students. We should also empower our non-disabled students to not pathologise normal difficulty and emotion. Resources are tight. Lots of the resources that should go on supporting students who really need it are eaten up by students who frankly don’t need it. Also, in all cases a diagnosis isn’t something to hind behind. Interestingly, it’s the genuinely disabled students who I observe doing their darnest to keep up despite their challenges.

Verv · 06/12/2023 11:10

She's right imo.

Pasted below in case of paywall.

Why would a healthy, intelligent person aspire to mental illness? Who goes to a doctor demanding written evidence that, despite full physical fitness, they are “impaired”, unable to face normality without special care? It doesn’t sound much like a CV, but it has become a commonplace ambition.

A Cambridge GP blew the whistle last week after being repeatedly asked to diagnose either Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) or anxiety disorders in students facing exams. They bring template letters to send to tutors; numerous city clinics offer private ADHD diagnoses, and rarely seem to say: “No, sorry, you’re ordinary: perhaps go easy on the partying?” Tutors, aware that respecting individual fragilities is more popular than upholding standards, meekly respond by offering 25 per cent extra time on exams, or — if the young person reports “anxiety” about the exam hall — a separately invigilated room.

It is hard to believe that all these mental disorders were mentioned in those students’ original applications. Personal statements vaunting “passion” for a subject rarely add: “But I am also cripplingly anxious, hyperactive and can’t bear stress.” You’d think that surviving a Cambridge interview suggests a certain robustness, given there’s only a one-in-four chance of acceptance even then. Yet when the exams come, so does the useful diagnosis.

Of course real and longstanding problems generally do get revealed on application, because alongside physical disability universities offer support for dyslexia or recognised mental illness. Many with such disabilities rise to great heights, often proudly preferring it not to be mentioned. But while it is disturbing that so many in further education claim fragility, it is hardly surprising. In schools, more GCSE and A-level candidates are awarded extra time than ever before (not just post-pandemic; it’s been rising for years).

Teachers will tell you that out of every 100 candidates at least a quarter, sometimes nearly half, will be on special arrangements. Extra exam time, a rest break, a privacy curtain or private room, a writer because their handwriting is illegible, or a laptop because that was their homework habit. Modern, yes, but a bit hard on kids without laptops needing the same grades.

They will also tell you that such special pleading is linked to class. An LSE survey of primary schools found that“special learning difficulties” diagnoses are twice as high in richer areas than in the most deprived. It’s a dark statistic: either the system is being gamed by richer parents or children in terrible conditions get their real impediments written off as naughtiness and drift unnoticed into shameful subliteracy. Already 413,000 children don’t own a single book, one in five have difficulties reading, and adult illiteracy is rising.

Meanwhile a vast middle class embraces a cultural belief — possibly connected to smaller families — that every individual is so precious and fragile that the world must bend around their quirks. Education built around specialness and “potential” pushes aside tough old expectations of public duty and a civil level of conformity: watch it all the way from public drunkenness and feet on seats to outrage at being made “unsafe” by disagreement. A recent play adapted 1950s Malory Towers school stories: plodding Enid Blyton tales but with accidental insights into a world of unheated-barracks dormitories and headmistresses telling girls to “give back! … be sensible, trustable women the world can lean on”.

Whatever the failings of postwar stiffness — it had plenty — at least that generation was more prepared than most modern children for the shocking fact that once education’s over, the wide world really doesn’t care about your feelings. Rules and systems should prevent bullying, but preserving your comfort zone is of interest only to parents and faithful friends. As far as everyone else is concerned, it’s up to you to be useful.

I suspect that children low on the economic ladder learn this earlier and prize “unfulfilling” paid work: the paper-round mentality. But middle-class kids risk a shock, on emerging from a system that from kindergarten to degree warmly fosters their personal development and applauds any effort. After years of being a unique treasure, you’re a cog: a usable unit. An employer may talk about fulfilment, but whether a coffee shop, lab, law firm, public service or Big Four consultancy, it really just wants the job done. On time, and properly. Anything else is kindness and may not last long.

So deciding that you cannot face an exam hall (especially if elsewhere you happily tolerate discos) does you no favours. Work always makes the heart hammer: am I up to it, will I get it done on time, will the boss or client be satisfied? In a new environment will I make a fool of myself? If, by the age of 20, you firmly diagnose yourself with “I’ve got anxiety”, why would anyone employ you?

I am not criticising a generation or those fighting genuine problems, but pointing at adult unfairness. It is unkind to encourage anyone to think of their feelings and quaverings as an impenetrable, sacred, privileged force-field. It is especially unfair now because competitive globalisation makes the wider world tougher than it was for those who emerged into it after the war; lectures on duty and personal humility echoing in their ears. Even my lot stepped out with both a good chance of job security and an awareness that our young selves were nowt special, mere apprentices, works-in-progress.

Today, watching a softened generation meeting a harsher world feels like a dastardly trick by the boomer generation: if we pretend to value every emotional foible of the young, maybe they won’t notice we’ve priced them out of getting a home.

Cambridge students ‘fake ADHD’ to get more time in exams

City doctor reports big increase in undergraduates wanting a letter for their tutor

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cambridge-students-fake-adhd-to-get-more-time-in-exams-cqws0gn92

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 06/12/2023 11:13

I don’t think resilience can be taught. You either are or you’re not. Dh is resilient, I’m not. I wish l was. I had a shit childhood, he didn’t.

There you go. Resilience is a temperament trait not a learning objective.

MagpiePi · 06/12/2023 11:13

@RashOfBees
I read something similar recently with an example about fragile students who don’t want to give presentations. Which just brought to mind a student who killed herself due to anxiety brought on by presentations.

That one student, was an extreme; there are probably very few students who don't feel anxious at giving a presentation, but in the past would have to grit their teeth, get on with it and then learn that they can do scary things. Nowadays they plead anxiety and never build up any resilience by pushing themselves.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 06/12/2023 11:15

MagpiePi · 06/12/2023 11:13

@RashOfBees
I read something similar recently with an example about fragile students who don’t want to give presentations. Which just brought to mind a student who killed herself due to anxiety brought on by presentations.

That one student, was an extreme; there are probably very few students who don't feel anxious at giving a presentation, but in the past would have to grit their teeth, get on with it and then learn that they can do scary things. Nowadays they plead anxiety and never build up any resilience by pushing themselves.

My daughter has mutism. She doesn’t choose it, she just can’t speak in certain situation.

Should she ‘grit’ her teeth? Because she can’t speak. Maybe gritting her teeth would magically enable this?Hmm

SammyScrounge · 06/12/2023 11:16

CruCru · 06/12/2023 10:14

She also said that special learning difficulties diagnoses are twice as high in richer areas than poor ones. I was surprised at this - not because middle class parents are good at getting help for their children but because I’d expect schools to notice when children are struggling (even in poor areas). Am I being naive?

Perhaps some middle class parents want a diagnosis label rather than a judgment such as lazy or disruptive or struggling to understand.

ThreeRingCircus · 06/12/2023 11:17

I am 50/50 on this one.

I think it's great that we have more awareness of mental health and want to make society more inclusive.

But I do worry about the pathologising of normal human emotions and don't feel that this does the people that really do have anxiety, depression, neurodiviersity etc any favours at all.

As an example, we have a number of people at work that have a diagnosis of ADHD. Most are wonderful and we have been able to work with them and Occupational Health to make reasonable adjustments to help them succeed in the workplace. They're a great asset to the workplace.

However, we've had a surge of people self-diagnosing, many of whom after they've entered a process to pull them up on their performance that it seems to be the number one get out clause "I'm not performing because I'm neurodiverse and the onus is on you as the employer to work out what I need to succeed." It's normally the first we've heard about it and I have to admit I've become cynical.... especially after they've spoken to Occupational Health and refuse to work with us but expect us to bend over backwards for them. It's a pattern of entitlement we do not see from those employees with genuine conditions but I don't know what the answer is.

I agree that there is a lot to be said for stoicism and resilience but that doesn't mean "put up or shut up." It means knowing that life will sometimes be difficult, or sad and that is OK and that feelings will pass but sometimes you just need to get on with things.

ehb102 · 06/12/2023 11:26

Our county has a literal policy of delaying assessments so long that people get desperate and go private.

Some people don't like humans who deviate from their perceived norm. They hate that people have good reasons for being different. They prefer to deny that you have a disease or a condition that a normal decent person would accommodate.

Boilingover24 · 06/12/2023 11:33

Unfortunately for those that do suffer with it adhd is fast becoming a bit of a joke diagnosis. There will soon (if not already) be numerous sufferers in every office, every job and management will simply roll their eyes. Because it’s fallen into private healthcare hands over here we are going the same way as the US. In some areas as many as 20% of children have a diagnosis. I can also see many lawsuits in the future involving medications. I think it will blow up in a big way eventually.

inamarina · 06/12/2023 11:34

KnittedCardi · 06/12/2023 10:32

Yes, lots of and present as quiet and shy. Particularly girls. It’s only in the last few years this is being recognised

I think we are also in danger though, that any diversion from the supposed "norm", anxiety, shyness, social awkwardness, can lead parents to assume an ND, when these can also just be a personality or life experiences. I know, DD is like that, but she isn't ND.

True, but on the other hand shy, quiet kids are sometimes (used to be often, not sure about now) judged for being too quiet, whereas outgoing, confident kids are praised.
That’s when ‘just being shy’ becomes a problem. It would be different if it was just accepted that that’s the way a child is, ND or not.

BettyBakesCakes · 06/12/2023 11:36

CruCru · 06/12/2023 10:14

She also said that special learning difficulties diagnoses are twice as high in richer areas than poor ones. I was surprised at this - not because middle class parents are good at getting help for their children but because I’d expect schools to notice when children are struggling (even in poor areas). Am I being naive?

Schools often deny there are issues because they don't want to have to provide the support.

Sheepskinthrow · 06/12/2023 11:37

Mmmm. Yes Libby Purves does or should know the difference because of how she very sadly lost her son and also because of her own depression that she has written about. And I very much feel for her on those two counts.

But I dislike this article and profoundly disagree with most of what it says. And having raised teens I just don’t believe it’s true. Nor do I think it’s good form to disparage an entire generation! Their lives may be much easier in some ways than ours thanks to the Internet, but equally, young men and women are under far more pressure and scrutiny now than we ever were.

I’m also not convinced she entirely believes what she is writing. I’m sorry but I feel the lady does protest too long and too much.

A large number of her articles are based on the theme of undergoing misery but trudging on in a stiff upper lip no-nonsense sort of way. She attended boarding schools in five different counties as a child because her father was a diplomat, and although this is sheer speculation on my part, and probably impertinent speculation at that, I’m afraid I think these experiences and her subsequent depression, have led her to a “well if it didn’t hurt me” type of response when in fact it did have a profoundly negative impact upon her but it’s somehow too painful to acknowledge.

LeRougeEtLeNoir · 06/12/2023 11:37

The shy quiet children are also ignored
Both on what they can achieve (so they get less support academically) and if there are any struggle (because they are not disruptive so go at the bottom of the list vs the ones who constantly disturb the classroom, even wo any SN)

Rouleur · 06/12/2023 11:38

Octavia64 · 06/12/2023 11:06

My Dad started work in the 60s.

There were so many jobs that if someone pissed him off he'd give notice and walk into a new job the next Monday.

If stuff made him anxious or he didn't want to do it he just didn't. All the employers knew that the shortages meant finding another job was easy.

The employers then whinged about resilience as well.

These days new grads don't want to work themselves to the bone for a company that will treat them like shit.

Staff shortages mean that it is easier than it has been in the past to find a new job if the job conditions are shit. That's why everyone is leaving teaching and the NHS.

My school was whinging about teachers should be more resilient as well - no, maybe you should stop making up random extra paperwork that has no impact on the kids so everyone leaves for a different school or country or profession.

Exactly this - the combination of native demographics and immigration policy mean that we are heading into another employment market bottleneck, which will be great for Generation Z. Employers are going to have to suck it up. This is a really interesting read: https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5803/cmselect/cmbeis/306/report.html

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