“We fail students by indulging their fragilities” - Libby Purves in the Times

[CruCru]

I read this thing by Libby Purves in the Times: [[We fail students by indulging their fragilities

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5dbf29f2-857e-41ce-8c78-028a513ab8f9?shareToken=c41320dec7bfb802e039b5c8bc3b513f

I found it very interesting. “Whatever the failings of postwar stiffness - it had plenty - at least that generation was more prepared than most modern children for the shocking fact that once education’s over, the wide world really doesn’t care about your feelings. Rules and systems should prevent bullying, but preserving your comfort zone is of interest only to parents and faithful friends. As far as everyone else is concerned, it’s up to you to be useful.”

I remember at work being taken aback at how much harder work some of the new graduates were than when I started. I wonder, though, if part of that was that they’d had to do so much more to get the job. My A levels were respectable but my old university wouldn’t give me a place these days. So much is expected of young people.

My mum let me test my emotional boundaries when I was younger. I remember at 15 being really upset after an argument with her and running off into the night. Rather than calling the police or launching a search party, she just let me go. I had a very long, cold, soggy walk around the outskirts of our town, before returning home in the small hours.

I used to look back in horror and wonder why she cared so little about me, but as an adult I understand it. I’m grateful she let me work through things rather than taking a preventative approach that never let me learn a lesson or exert my sadness/frustration.

I don’t know if that makes sense but it does to me.

@seenisambol my son who is 25 has experienced the same within their business and as I said below my H freelances for a huge trendy company who have had similar situations. It's not just anyone being neurodiverse, in many cases it's 'some' younger people not actually having any idea or even giving a shit about what's acceptable or accepted manners in professional or corporate companies. . Then there are all the ones who now only want to work from home when it wasn't part of the original contract. Thing is though whilst the big trendy company place a big emphasis on diversity they can to a large extent still pick and choose and anyone who is not reliable , wants to dictate terms and is not a long term valued employee (who is say going through a health issue) , simply won't be kept on. Unless they stop attracting plenty of high calibre candidates then I can't see that changing

WTF am I reading...why is so acceptable on MN to suggest that neurodiversity is not a real disability?
Is anyone saying neurodiversity isn't a real disability?

It matters to have the right support and right adjustments in place for the right people.

Pathologising normal behaviours and feelings doesn't help people with SEN, long term medical conditions and disabilities.

Stepping away from neurodiversity to give an example.
Someone with a chronic illness who experiences pain and fatigue is going to need reasonable adjustments.
Someone else who doesn't go to bed on time and doesn't reliably come to work on time doesn't get to co-opt the adjustments and experiences of a colleague with a disability because they'd rather start later in the morning.

The second person is unreasonable to equate their 'i stayed up too late and feel a bit tired' to the first person's chronic fatigue and pain that impacts on their whole life.

"I think the stats are 25% of us in every year on average have a mental health problem"

This is a good example of normal emotions being conflated with mental illness. It is not feasible that 25% of people in any one year has a mental illness. It is feasible that 25% of us in any one year is sad, down, overwhelmed. That is hardly surprising. Life is difficult and stressful, so lots of people struggle. But conflating this with mental illness does no one any favours.

But how do you know they aren’t mental illness? If the figures are from Gp’s they will be correct. I’ve always thought the figure was 1 in 3.

These people aren’t just sad, they are unwell. Some people struggle with what life throws at them.

You honestly think 25% of people in the UK have a mental illness at any one time?
The 1 in 3 is over a whole lifetime.

And I know many people struggle with what happens in their life. My whole point is this is not mental illness. Lots of people who are bereaved are offered anti depressants. They might be helpful, but they are not mentally ill, they are grieving.

I think a lot of people are on medication. And it depends what you term a mental disability. Someone with low mood or anxiety can be mentally ill.

It doesn’t have to be a severe impairment.

What is different is the expectations. I am all for accommodation and adjustments. But I always had the idea that I had to ensure I could make it in the world, not that the world had to reshape itself around what I preferred when I started working. What I see in younger people at work is there is often a sense that if they dont want to do something they are genuinely perplexed as to why they have to do it anyway.

We fundamentally disagree then. Low mood is part of our normal range of emotions. It is not a mental illness. It is medicalising normal distress.
We are not supposed to be happy and content all the time. Life is stressful and difficult. We will be anxious, have low mood or feel overwhelmed at times. Mental illness is when these normal emotions tip over into not being able to cope day to day. When getting up becomes too hard so we are late for work. Washing becomes too hard so we smell. Our children are neglected.

No, low mood is a mental illness. I’ve had it for years. It’s treated with anti depressants. I’ve seen psychiatrists. I also have debilitating anxiety.

But chronic low mood ( even mild) is a proper diagnosis and affects people.

I have always worked with the idea that all the elements of mental illness are normal parts of normal every day life - mood swings, depression, anxiety, even some psychotic like symptoms. It is when they are extreme, debilitating and chronic that they can start to be diagnosable illnesses. I spend half my time telling people that what they perceive to be illness are normal reactions - and the other half telling people that what they are presenting as normal meets criteria for diagnosis. Its complicated.

The usual measure is if they are affecting your life.

My grief has affected my life. I refuse to see that as a mental illness. It is normal to be affected when people you love die.

Thats up to you.

I guess the figure comes from Gp’s. And they ARE qualified to judge after all

I do not think it is a good thing to medicalise normal emotions like grief.

They are regularly dismissed on here as useless & uneducated.

I think GPs are under pressure to make things better. So they hand out anti depressants. Loads of people I have spoken to about grief were offered anti depressants.

What’s the problem with it?

If the grief is crippling and stopping you function then anti depressants can help.

There is a point with grief where it can tip over into mental illness.
But normal grief needs to be worked through. That means being upset, crying, being distracted, difficulty concentrating.
Unless you are on anti depressants for the rest of your life, at some point you need to deal with your feelings and thoughts.

I don’t have a problem with antidepressants being used as much as needed. If they keep you going out, interacting with the world, that in itself will help and mean you don’t let work/relationships slide away while in an acute episode,

You talk as if anti depressants have no side effects, and are easy to stop.
For mental illness it can be worth dealing with that.
And I actually think deferred grief can be harder to process.

What are the side effects out of interest? I had the initial shakes and sweats, but after a few weeks I felt much better and had no side effects after that.

They are easy to stop. You can ride the side effects if you want to feel better.

I was on anti depressants. It was incredibly difficult to come off them. I know it varies for everyone. But it took me about a year with horrific withdrawals. I would never take them again. It made me understand why a few friends have been taking them for decades.