“We fail students by indulging their fragilities” - Libby Purves in the Times

[CruCru]

I read this thing by Libby Purves in the Times: [[We fail students by indulging their fragilities

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5dbf29f2-857e-41ce-8c78-028a513ab8f9?shareToken=c41320dec7bfb802e039b5c8bc3b513f

I found it very interesting. “Whatever the failings of postwar stiffness - it had plenty - at least that generation was more prepared than most modern children for the shocking fact that once education’s over, the wide world really doesn’t care about your feelings. Rules and systems should prevent bullying, but preserving your comfort zone is of interest only to parents and faithful friends. As far as everyone else is concerned, it’s up to you to be useful.”

I remember at work being taken aback at how much harder work some of the new graduates were than when I started. I wonder, though, if part of that was that they’d had to do so much more to get the job. My A levels were respectable but my old university wouldn’t give me a place these days. So much is expected of young people.

This in a nutshell. It's become part of the 'who can I blame?' culture that prevails - it's always someone else's fault and there's an automatic right to success and happiness - no work involved. Of course not all are like this, but life's tough and employers won't indulge all these excuses, so they'll find the big wide world a tough place to be.

I think resilience can and should be taught. It should be about challenging negative thought patterns, giving young people the tools to cope with setbacks and things that didn't go according to plan, picking themselves up and moving on (let's draw a line under that), encouraging them to move out the comfort zone, helping them find new interests and ideas and embracing new challenges with a positive mindset. They need help from experienced adults to do that. It's rewarding when they do.

The world of work does not revolve around the needs of individuals, because it can't. Even big employers- NHS, Government, FTSE companies, etc - don't have the time and resources to do so. The world of work is tough at times (sometimes often) and young people need to be equipped with the emotional tools to deal with the challenges it presents.

I imagine Europe has better accommodations than the U.K. Their productivity is high. It’s nothing to do with 5 days a week. It’s to do with

lack of investment
lack of training
lack of education
shit transport infrastructure
London centric policies
shit wages
bad employers
no job security
service centred economy.

Can you source that the EU has better adjustments? I would imagine it’s the opposite.

@Naptrappedmummy I 100% agree- which is why I said as such.

Libby Purves, whose son took his own life as a young adult due to mental illness? You’d think she’d have more sympathy and understanding of young people who need support.

I have haven't got time to read the whole thread...
But from the title I have to somehow agree.

I know one of DD'S class mate is dead set to become a primary school teacher. Great, we do need more teachers!!
Exept, she's autistic, struggling with social cues, noise and can't see "the funny side of things" . So overall not well suited for a primary school environment.

Yet school and now university tell her she can do it! They give her an assistant on placement and a pt timetable to help her cope. Again, great to see the level of help she receives.

However, what primary school will employ her once qualified?
I think it's so sad, a bit of an reality check doesn't hurt. Especially when this girl is spending her money on an education for a career path that will be challenging based on her individual needs.

I simply don’t agree with the prevailing view that people don’t want to fit in and do a good day’s work. Of course you will always get a few work shy folk or those who genuinely cannot hold down a job for various reasons, and there are youngsters who are inexperienced who need to learn on the job, but in my lived experience, most people are happy to pitch in and conform and do their best. Many people want to improve themselves too.

I think it is in the interest of the right wing Murdoch press to “other” those with disabilities or SEN, to divide us politically and set one generation against the other. I’m surprised that a bright woman like Libby Purves plays their game tbh. Perhaps she needs a new Aga?

No l can’t. I’m not a researcher. The key word was ‘imagine’

Hiwever their is an EU charter of disability rights. Which is more than Britain has.

We are not in competition with the kinds of countries that have lots of people willing to work lots of hours.

Despite what you read in the paper, we are not in competition with China and India and other such countries.

China mostly makes goods. The U.K. is mostly not a manufacturing economy any more and the things it does make are made by highly skilled workers. You can't compare BAE systems designing and making missiles with China who are generally manufacturing stuff they don't know how to design.

India etc do have knowledge workers - eg programmers - but many companies that have offshored to India or the Philippines have moved production back to the U.K. or US because the quality of the work just wasn't good enough.

The U.K. offers financial and cultural services - top mergers and acquisitions or corporate structuring lawyers for example - and these are highly skilled jobs where it's not just about the hours you do, it's about the quality of the work.

There is a saying in programming - if you employ a top 1% programmer to do your project he will produce it far quicker and to a far better quality than a top 50% programmer.

Britain gets richer primarily because of the quality of the work done, not the quantity.

It's not about the hours.

As someone who has no children the ‘hard lives of today’s children’ makes me laugh. From birth they have had the best of everything, all the prams and gadgets, worry about food, nice clothes, going on foreign holidays, mobile phones, iPads, parents hysterical about schools and universities?

Look back to the recent past, they live a life of luxury compared to when I was a child in a not very well off home!

I know all kids are treated this way, but it is what is portrayed in MN

What a depressing post! Given time, this young girl could become a great teacher of AS students. Or a private tutor. ASD isn’t an intellectual disability. It’s a difference in how the brain processes information.

This is a difficult one as to a certain extent I agree, I am an employer and I see a HUGE difference in work ethic and resilience between generations. Both are of 2 extremes. Whilst I cannot generalise, we have clearly come out of a “suck it up, life is tough, get on with it” culture (which can be damaging if you are not built for this) to a “you are the only one that matters and if you feel bad then you have the right to quit” which means that people are becoming less and less easy to rely on.

Mass parenting styles have changed, teaching styles have changed, work culture is trying to catch up.

We should care about mental health and disabilities but not from a reactive lens which is what we are doing now. It needs to be embedded in culture and that will take a while - sadly.

I think mental health and disabilities is one topic whilst the damages of an individualist mass culture is another.

I think mental health and disabilities is one topic whilst the damages of an individualist mass culture is another

I don’t quite agree there.
You can’t get a culture that will care fir the most vulnerable members of society if all you care about is yourself.
To care about people with MH issues or disability is also recognising it can happen to any of us - as the sharp increase of disability claims is showing atm. But it’s going to be hard if you assume that being ill or disabled is a personal problem rather than a societal one (too)

There are actually less jobs these days for disabled people. The easy jobs have gone. There are no lift attendants, car park attendants, very few factory line jobs. Even supermarket jobs that used to have cashiers sitting all the time, are now flexible and you have to shelf stack cutting out people with some physical disabilities.
Nearly all minimum wage jobs or just above it are more complex. Cleaning is probably the only exception. Literacy is required for nearly every job these days as is numeracy. It did not used to be the case.
So it is harder for disabled people that at one time would have been employed, to now get a job.

^^ Brilliant post! Very well said!

Er… being disabled doesn’t mean that you can’t read or have a degree!!
Its not because you are disabled that only entry level jobs are possible to you.

However, companies are very good at assuming that so they pay a disabled person about 25% less than an abled person for the same job (how strange…..)

I have to agree with her, in fairness no one is criticising those with genuine disabilities or neurodiverse issues. The whole point is the others who are playing the system. Who doesn't feel anxious leading up to an exam, FFS! The problem is differentiating between an anxiety disorder and an anxious feeling that is normal. I would really worry for a kid who is getting accommodated because of anxiety in this way, but is then expected to turn up for an entrance exam or interview where nothing is done for them. They have not learned the skill set to deal with life and will find it hard to get a job, even when they do they will not be able to deal with the pressures of the job, failed attempts at promotion, difficult customers/clients, pressurised deadlines. The skill set needs to match the job too and this needs to be considered when applying to Uni. The one thing we should be preparing young people for is the real world, with all that it encompasses.

When I started work I worked in the public sector, I no longer do. We had people employed who were disabled and couldn't do the full job. For example, I was working in an entry level job and one colleague doing the same job had significant learning difficulties/. My boss said it was better he was working than being on the dole. So everyone doing my job had to give this man our easier jobs. He did photocopying, bought tea and coffee for meetings and set it out, did running around, and generally was given whatever needed doing that was easy. Sometimes there was not enough for him to do. Within 3 years that all changed and all these people were managed out.

@LeRougeEtLeNoir Of course being disabled does not mean you can only do entry level jobs. But disabled people who are well educated and with specialist skills tend to get jobs. It is those who can't do any job to a normal standard who can't get any job. But my point was they used to be able to get jobs. Very basic jobs used to exist.

And I am officially disabled. It makes zero difference to me being able to do a job except I need to attend some hospital appointments. I can't do very physical jobs, but I can get a job and work no problem. I am not visually disabled so I don't even need to tell employers at interview. Disabled people like me are not the ones who struggle to get a job.

Wtf?!

Disability doesn’t always affect intelligence! My ds has dyslexia. he’s got a PhD.

Dd is ASD. She got 8’s and 9’s in her GCSE.

Ive got anxiety. I was a middle leader in teaching.

What a borrow minded view of disability.

I have already answered your question. I meet the legal definition of disabled. If you can manage a very stressful job like a teacher I am not talking about you.
I do not have anxiety and could not manage the stress of being a teacher.

I think we should totally support people with genuine problems; but as the article says it can be up to 25% of students needing support.
What would you do if 25% of your workmates didn’t turn up today because they are suffering from stress/anxiety?
We appear to have ‘medicalised’ normal human emotions; who’s not worried when they have an exam/interview/waiting for results?

That makes sense actually - organised sounds rather than random noise. Thanks.