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PaperDoIIs · 05/11/2023 11:28

@FancyFanny the real solutions cost time and money. The refusal of help (on top of mental health issues,addiction etc) stems from a complete lack of trust and fear of authority. Abuse,neglect,being treated like animals etc.So what has worked in other places were outreach programs that provide meals,necessary items, healthcare ,companionship,conversation ,treating them like people etc. without any restrictions or pressure.When done regularly, by a consistent team relationships build,trust builds and service users engage more. That's when the work to rehabilitate and reintegrate in society can start. Interventions like these also tend to improve conditions and the atmosphere overall , so the benefits extend to the wider community too.

And of course, well funded and working social care, welfare, mental health,addiction services so that more people don't end up in that situation to begin with.

ToWhitToWhoo · 05/11/2023 12:56

poorlyarm · 05/11/2023 02:37

Yeah I'm a republican. Might as well get the guns on them, hey?Hmm

Projection much? The current Republicans are exactly the ones who want to get guns on everyone else (apologies if you're one of the few exceptions to that). With all the current failings of Britain, we at least don't see getting guns on someone as the automatic solution to every problem!

porridgeisbae · 05/11/2023 14:03

There are plenty of hostel places, some people would rather be on the streets because the hostels try to ban drinking or taking drugs on site.

No one should give money to beggars/those living on the street because a)it almost all goes on the addictions that shorten their lives and b) giving them money enables them to continue the way of life which shortens their lives.

What these people need to do to get more longevity is to get off the streets (the rare few of them that don't just go home to their homes after they've 'earned' their days 'wages.') Unfortunately, no one can make them do it.

Some service that removed these people from the streets and put them in rehab/treatment facilities might help, but unfortunately we don't do that. I suppose they'd still have to want to comply with that for it to have any long term effect.

pointythings · 05/11/2023 14:10

@porridgeisbae I have some personal experience of life with addicts and it really isn't that simple. Clearly rehab is a strong part of any solution, but it is already incredibly difficult to find affordable rehab places for people who are motivated, have a home and have a supportive family behind them. There aren't enough places, and many that exist are private and charge sky high fees. Until we build the health infrastructure to deal with addiction, we will get nowhere.

Now add in the fact that most rehabs will not have the staff with the skill set to deal with people who have serious comorbid mental health issues underpinning their addiction, and you have a perfect storm. Substance misuse with combined mental health services barely exist in the UK any more. This started under Labour and has continued apace under the Tories. The electorate don't want to see addiction as a health issue rather than a criminal justice issue, so there is no electoral gain in a pragmatic and compassionate approach - especially since it would require serious investment.

It isn't a matter of 'just don't drink/use and you'll get a hostel place' - that is blindly refusing to accept the complexity of the lives some people live.

Cariadm · 05/11/2023 15:06

Cruella de Braverman and her Tory buddies only ever come up with or suggest feeble and simple solutions to the outcome and situations brought about by what they perceive to be 'problems', but those problems are often of their own making anyway and are just another brick in their 'gaslighting' wall and another way to attempt to hide their total incompetence and shameless corruption!🙄
To seriously tackle things like mental health, homelessness, social care etc etc would take a massive amount of economic investment not to mention actual brains and expertise and sadly, because they hate 'the State' with a vengeance, for the last 13 years we have had neither of those inputs from what we can only loosely term the 'government'. 😡
We will have to wait a while for a change in attitude and capability and then hope that perhaps things might start to slowly change where we will have 'politics for the people' instead of the other way around?! 😥

spookehtooth · 05/11/2023 15:19

Lentilweaver · 05/11/2023 10:14

Love the dog whistle "many of them from abroad". She's a vile traitor to PoC.

I think that's naive on many levels, but in the main one in this context is viewing them as a single bloc. View all the intersections running through her and consider class. She has as much in common with ordinary PoC as Boris Johnson and me, despite similar skin colour and sex. She is very well aligned with her class/wealth interests.

The same is true of the Sunak, don't let him off the hook either for supporting this or anyone else in that party keeping their mouths shut. Every Tory MP who doesn't speak up is complicit in this, the cabinet especially who formally sign up to collective responsibility

SerendipityJane · 05/11/2023 15:21

I hope this thread isn't undermining the UK. There will be serious consequences for people who do, you know.

spookehtooth · 05/11/2023 15:35

SerendipityJane · 05/11/2023 15:21

I hope this thread isn't undermining the UK. There will be serious consequences for people who do, you know.

Part of me hopes that legislation passes, it was heartening for me to see sit downs and road blocking in London this weekend. Disparate interests, seemingly unconnected, need to join the dots and work together.

This so-called Democracy is not the best of all possible worlds. It's not even as old as propaganda suggests. Most people's political freedoms, of all genders whatever your beliefs on categories, is barely 100 years old. There's too much privileged access for the wealthy, and almost zero direct participation. The little access we do have political parties are gate keepers. Look at the wealth and background of them and civil service, particularly senior positions. Then there's all those think-tanks with their big business and billionaire funding. None of this is conspiracy, its universally acknowledged information in the public domain

PaperDoIIs · 05/11/2023 16:55

porridgeisbae · 05/11/2023 14:03

There are plenty of hostel places, some people would rather be on the streets because the hostels try to ban drinking or taking drugs on site.

No one should give money to beggars/those living on the street because a)it almost all goes on the addictions that shorten their lives and b) giving them money enables them to continue the way of life which shortens their lives.

What these people need to do to get more longevity is to get off the streets (the rare few of them that don't just go home to their homes after they've 'earned' their days 'wages.') Unfortunately, no one can make them do it.

Some service that removed these people from the streets and put them in rehab/treatment facilities might help, but unfortunately we don't do that. I suppose they'd still have to want to comply with that for it to have any long term effect.

Oh to be so naive and sheltered.

You have Jim, an ex vet. He drinks to numb the pain, both physical and mental . To drown out the screams, to forget the horrors,to actually be able to sleep without a car backfiring sending him right back in that awful place. He can actually half engage with a shelter and he'd prefer that. However, the set up,the noises,the shadows means he's on alert all the time,in flight or fight mode , he can't actually settle he's just more anxious and jittery. He also has a "rep" now as in the middle of the night he got frightened, thinking he was attacked and harmed other service users. He's safer on the streets he thinks. It's safer for others if he's on the streets too.

Then you have Alicia, Mary, James, Lucas and Sarah. They're barely out of their teens but their scars(mental and physical) run deep. They've been used and abused all their lives. Groomed into prostitution or drug running or both. Oh they know all the pretty words and promises and reassurances. But they know it's just words. Because sometimes they got sent back where they ran from,despite the abuse, because sometimes where they were sent was worse than the streets. Because most times they were treated like scum and criminals and liars and no one cared or believed them. At least they have each other on the streets, they have each other's back, they understand each other, they look at each other as equals and peers and family, not with pity or disgust .

Or Sam,Jessica, Franklin and Joseph who have lost everything due to a bad mental episode. They had no support to begin with and they believed that it will be ok,they will be looked after,they won't lose their home,their children ,their jobs etc. Turns out they did and were left out on the streets with no follow up. They tried to hang on , but they couldn't get their meds , or stopped taking them , or the dosage didn't work anymore. So now they're consistently in a mental health crisis and they know "they" lie, that's without the voices ,intrusive thoughts etc.

Or Jack who got kicked out at 15 because he's autistic. Oh there is a diagnosis somewhere in his notes but it has been years since anyone looked at them. So people keep touching him,shouting at him, making him to look them in the eye, do things that he can't or hurt him, and when he melts down they just assume he's another druggie, under the influence they say , they call him crazy and mental and dangerous,they call him a violent offender and restrain him or arrest him causing more trauma,more pain.

You tell me that's a lifestyle choice, that forcing them into rehab it's all it takes, that they actually have choices and options and the ability to make those choices. That if only they tried harder, they were better people,stronger,more resilient,more civilised it would all be ok. That if they just went to a shelter it would just be ok.

SerendipityJane · 05/11/2023 17:15

@PaperDoIIs I don't think it's naivety. A lot of people know all these facts already. They just don't care.

medianewbie · 05/11/2023 17:38

Nenanena · 04/11/2023 21:31

@SeaPool

Absolutely. Vile, vile, woman. Dog whistle racism.

It’s supreme arrogance, lack of intelligence and lack of imagination to not understand that the choices people appear to make in life are actually the result of all of the advantage or disadvantage that has come their way, ie upbringing, parental mental health, financial resources, education, innate pre-dispositions in physical and mental health, presence or lack of any special educational need or disability, luck, social support, etc etc. As others more eloquent than I have expressed, people who are living in tents have probably experienced cumulative disadvantage over time that has severely damaged their ability to sustain financial and mental good health. It’s COMPLEX and people who can’t bear to grapple with this will unfortunately resort to simplistic ways of thinking that feels more comfortable to them and maintains their position of superiority because they made the right choices rather than because they’ve been bloody lucky enough in the first place to be able to apparently make the right choices.

Perfectly put @Nenanena

porridgeisbae · 05/11/2023 17:39

@PaperDoIIs Lots of people have issues but they're not on the streets so it can be done. And most of those we see begging are just getting a bit of cash and then going home anyway. It can be pretty lucrative.

I have severe MH problems and was homeless but I never did anything like that, nor did most of us. Nothing naive about it. It's more naive that schmucks just give this people money for beer/drugs, or give them food so they have more money to spend on beer/drugs.

PaperDoIIs · 05/11/2023 17:40

Yeah I'm out. @SerendipityJane you were obviously right.

Sirzy · 05/11/2023 17:41

porridgeisbae · 05/11/2023 17:39

@PaperDoIIs Lots of people have issues but they're not on the streets so it can be done. And most of those we see begging are just getting a bit of cash and then going home anyway. It can be pretty lucrative.

I have severe MH problems and was homeless but I never did anything like that, nor did most of us. Nothing naive about it. It's more naive that schmucks just give this people money for beer/drugs, or give them food so they have more money to spend on beer/drugs.

You do realise that not everyone is the same don’t you? Fantastic that you were able to get support but don’t assume that will be the case for everyone.

pointythings · 05/11/2023 17:42

porridgeisbae · 05/11/2023 17:39

@PaperDoIIs Lots of people have issues but they're not on the streets so it can be done. And most of those we see begging are just getting a bit of cash and then going home anyway. It can be pretty lucrative.

I have severe MH problems and was homeless but I never did anything like that, nor did most of us. Nothing naive about it. It's more naive that schmucks just give this people money for beer/drugs, or give them food so they have more money to spend on beer/drugs.

And because you were able to do it, everyone else should also be able to do it.

Some 'alternative logic' there. Not to mention an Olympic standard of callous.

SerendipityJane · 05/11/2023 17:43

You do realise that not everyone is the same don’t you?

Surely that's their problem ?

Fantastic that you were able to get support but don’t assume that will be the case for everyone.

But what has that got to do with anything ?

pointythings · 05/11/2023 17:47

@SerendipityJane the problem that poster has is a complete empathy bypass. Like our current government.

SerendipityJane · 05/11/2023 17:57

pointythings · 05/11/2023 17:47

@SerendipityJane the problem that poster has is a complete empathy bypass. Like our current government.

I would humbly suggest the problem is our government was put there by a whole bunch of folks who lack empathy. People ready to heed the call to "Get Brexit Done !" whilst washing their hair when it's "Feed Every Child !".

pointythings · 05/11/2023 18:08

SerendipityJane · 05/11/2023 17:57

I would humbly suggest the problem is our government was put there by a whole bunch of folks who lack empathy. People ready to heed the call to "Get Brexit Done !" whilst washing their hair when it's "Feed Every Child !".

Agree with you 100%. I can't get my head around their thinking at all.

StaunchMomma · 05/11/2023 18:12

She's pure evil, that one.

Nothing shocks me from her.

SerendipityJane · 05/11/2023 18:14

StaunchMomma · 05/11/2023 18:12

She's pure evil, that one.

Nothing shocks me from her.

Speaking purely for myself, I'd worry where my humanity had gone, if I could no longer be shocked.

StaunchMomma · 05/11/2023 18:23

SerendipityJane · 05/11/2023 18:14

Speaking purely for myself, I'd worry where my humanity had gone, if I could no longer be shocked.

By her?!

No. Not shocking, because I know her to be an utterly evil piece of human waste.

SerendipityJane · 06/11/2023 08:57

...

I just have no words
Passepartoute · 06/11/2023 09:11

RealOP · 04/11/2023 22:37

Walk down Oxford Street or The Strand and you'll see literally camps of rough sleepers in tents. The vast majority of those people are not British. And by that I do not mean they are not white (before anyone accuses me of being racist), but they are actual foreigners with foreign passports and who don't speak English.

Why cone to this country to sleep in tents? Do we seriously have to pretend the homeless camps are not a blight on our civilisations?

You've seen their passports, have you?

Passepartoute · 06/11/2023 09:22

porridgeisbae · 05/11/2023 00:01

Banning the use of tents is not going to help. Access to more support will.

@Bemyclementine The problem is, as you said in your post, they have to take the real help before anyone can help them.

We should really be thinking in terms of real help before people reach anywhere near the homelessness stage. That means, for instance, a lot of investment in education, particularly for children and young people with SEN and disabilities who are obviously more likely to have difficulty in finding employment; much more investment in social care and the health system, especially mental health; and much more investment in basic housing and welfare. Yes, that would be expensive, but it makes much more sense in economic terms because it greatly increases the chances of a higher proportion of the population becoming economically productive rather than being dependent on the state.

But this government won't do it, because they're just desperate to stay in power and would rather to for short term tax cuts to try to scramble a few more votes.