“Karen” is a misogynist term.

[Bleuuuughhh]

i just would like to get an idea of how other women feel about this term.

It seems deeply unfair there is no equivalent term for badly behaved men. In my eyes, the phase appears to be a new insult to add the huge list women have had add to put up with through the ages.

Women being sexually active is now more acceptable so the terms “Jezebel”, “slag” are not used as widely. Similarly there is an aging population “crone” and “witch” aren’t acceptable . Now a woman who complains, or doesn’t tow the party time is called a “Karen”.

Has anything really actually changed at all?

I just asked my 12 year old son and 11 year old nephew what a 'Karen' was to see his view.

'A moany man or woman'

'A person who complains a lot'

were the 2 the response I got. It seems it's becoming a genderless term.

I’m not arrogant or demanding thanks. At least I have some manners.

Thats up for debate, I list some of the traumas faced by ethnic women in the UK and your response is cynicism, its not the fault of my mum and her mates, and anyway prove it. What's the matter never heard of Google? Bing? Alexa or Siri?

And even when we have proven it, even with a whole House of Commons report, even then, she doesn’t acknowledge how deeply rooted white privilege is in Britain.

This thread is full of irony.

Are you seriously trying to defend your anti racism credentials? You wrote the equivalent of 'we're not racist we have black friends' and the cherry on the top... Woke.

You sure?

@Newkidintow I believe you that your mum would not have "sanctioned" less pain relief for black women. That does not mean that she always treated them the same. This is the entire point.

Unconscious bias and racism lead to all kinds of negative outcomes for black and brown women. This is a fact.

If you bothered to read any of the research provided upthread, you would see that while it's true that it's quite difficult to say, "this black woman was specifically refused pain relief because she is black" it is NOT difficult to say that proportionally, black women are more likely to be denied pain relief or to experience negative outcomes during pregnancy and childbirth. Then extrapolate from there.

Whether the reason is blatant, outright racism or subtle, less obvious versions, is irrelevant - the point is that black women are not receiving the same level of care, on average, as white women.

In the same way that my 13 year old DS can, and does, notice that the way he and his friends are treated when they are out and about is different when they are a group of white children vs a group of children of different races. If he can see it, you should be able to as well.

This is the problem though, it's not that they are actively sanctioning harmful practice, it's the unconscious bias that all white people will have to some degree, playing out in situations where it makes black people more vulnerable. They probably aren't even aware of it but its very real and there has been a lot of work done to call it out, but not enough done to address it. And @Lndnmummy is absolutely right, it's all over Google, all you had to do was go and look and take responsibility for your own curiosity. Asking women of colour to educate you on topics that directly impact them is harmful behaviour in itself because a) it can be triggering for the person you're asking as we've already seen on this 2) the information is freely available so why are you expecting a black woman to go and do free research for you at their own emotional expense 3) you're then dismissing both sound research provided plus the lived experience of women of colour on this thread 4) when called out on all of the above you've called @Lndnmummy rude for being understandably frustrated. This is tone policing and again you unconsciously using your privilege to shut someone down.

There are loads of great resources out there for white people (myself included) to inform ourselves on. We don't need anyone else to be doing the work we're responsible for.

With all that considered, can you see why your post was problematic and got the subsequent responses? Can you see why it's fully plausible that there are lots of well meaning white people out there acting in ways that are harmful without them even realising?

Where did I write anything remotely akin to "we're not racist we have black friends"?!

As for woke. I was using it in a self deprecating way as a shorthand for what kind of family we are - the way we would be described as woke by right wingers.

You are not coming across well here. The issue of inequitable treatment of women, and most of all black women, in healthcare is well documented. The reports contain the methodology. There is very little dissent on the findings.

So for you to dismiss them out of hand because you’ve somehow remained in ignorance of this massive topical feminist and racial issue is a bit… unfortunate.

It's a meaningless term. If someone called me a Karen I would shrug and not give it any headspace. Certain derogatory terms come into fashion and go out again.

I don't think I need to do an inner reflection on why I might be called a Karen . People are entitled to their opinion but I don't have to give it room in my head. I'm a recovering people pleaser and tend to be hypersensitive (lifetime of abuse and bullying behind me) so I know it isn't easy but I've got an age and stage in life where I just can't be bothered to fight a battle which isn't mine to fight.

apologies @Lavender14 I tagged you by mistake . My reply wasn't directed at you but it's my thoughts on the topic.

I’m NOT dismissing them! I’m asking what the reasons are for stating that black women don’t have the same access to pain relief!

Newkid why not read the report

or read reports of the report if you are interested

or would you rather just argue in a dismissive way

I would expect anyone who wasn’t already aware of this who has empathy to reply that is shocking things have to change

But you kept asking, while being dismissive, even after a poster kindly took the time to post multiple links to research and studies that highlight the issue.

There really needs to be a different name for one of these definitions of Karen. It gets confusing when there is a real issue like racial inequalities going on and "karens" weaponising their race and the other Karen stereotype . They are completely different concepts with one having nothing to do with the other.

Agree

when it started it was ok as had a reason and some messaging (original one )

but now ? it’s just being used to be misogynistic

How about nobody gets called a Karen.

Racists get called racists.
Entitled/rude people get called entitled/rude.

Precisely.

Karen is a horrible mysogynistic term. Imagine if you took a typical Muslim or black name and used it as a shorthand for some kind of unacceptable behaviour? It's not ok! We need to use proper words and sentences instead of lazy shorthand stereotypes.

Or how about people choose how they call out racism when it’s directed at them without people who don’t have to deal with racism and really have no clue, and have no interest in the complexities of how racism plays out as shown time and time again on this thread telling them how they should do it 🙄

You'd have a point if the word you were using applied to both men and women, or if you had a separate one for men.

Seeings as you only have Karen, it's clearly misogynist, and as a woman I would prefer people call out racism without being misogynist.

This is completely untrue. It was not originally coined to refer to racist white women and later appropriated. It was originally coined and in widespread usage in its misogynistic form and years later co-opted to have racial connotations as one of several evolutions of the term. Its so bizarre to see people just confidently spreading misinformation to justify derailing a thread about sexism, especially when this has been corrected several times already. At least many years later its still working as intended I guess - a term is created and popularised by horrifically misogynistic men to attack women, it is absorbed into the mainstream where it is widely used as such, but when women seek to discuss it they get shut down, spoken over, and derailed.

If people ever bothered to look into the actual origins of the term they would see the culture it was developed in and how horrifically racist it was. Maybe they would stop and think about whose words they were using and defending.

Yes I agree. Racism causes generational and personal trauma and socio econonomic inequalities . It shouldn't be equated with someone having a hissy fit.

You have been informed time and time again it is used to recognise a particular form of underhand racism from women

As you are aware you keep ignoring this

"Inform" me of whatever you want - Karen is primarily used in the UK to silence women and has little connection to racism in its current form.

Go onto tiktok and just search up "Karen". Watch the first 10 or 20 videos...how many have any racial aspect to them?

You're the one ignoring and derailing.