“Karen” is a misogynist term.

[Bleuuuughhh]

i just would like to get an idea of how other women feel about this term.

It seems deeply unfair there is no equivalent term for badly behaved men. In my eyes, the phase appears to be a new insult to add the huge list women have had add to put up with through the ages.

Women being sexually active is now more acceptable so the terms “Jezebel”, “slag” are not used as widely. Similarly there is an aging population “crone” and “witch” aren’t acceptable . Now a woman who complains, or doesn’t tow the party time is called a “Karen”.

Has anything really actually changed at all?

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5803/cmselect/cmwomeq/94/report.html

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/11/black-women-uk-maternal-mortality-rates

https://www.npeu.ox.ac.uk/mbrrace-uk/reports

https://www.npeu.ox.ac.uk/mbrrace-uk/data-brief/maternal-mortality-2019-2021

https://www.cuh.nhs.uk/news/childbirth-pain-relief-study-reveals-inequalities-for-bame-mothers/#:~:text=The%20study%20concluded%3A,women%20to%20receive%20an%20epidural.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9314829/

@Lndnmummy Loving your work!

I was on a different thread a short while ago where a black woman told the story of her sister or sister in law who nearly died while pregnant as the symptoms of a very serious complication (pre eclampsia possibly?) were missed as they present differently because I think there were skin tone changes that were less visible? I can't remember the exact detail, but it was horrifying. This woman was saved because she happened to run into a black doctor in the parking lot who figured out immediately what was happening and brought her back into the hospital.

Google not working on your computer? Or are you generally that dismissive of black/brown women's experiences that you shriek for evidence (that you are subsequently too lazy to search for yourself) before you can decide if the claim is 'true'?

Arrogant, entitled, ignorant. The very definition of this term that is so 'mysoginist'.

Firstly, I wasn't giving myself a pat on the back. I was just responding to the poster who wanted to "gently suggest" I teach my DD about privilege.

Secondly we are on a forum - narrow examples are all I can offer here, I'm not writing a thesis. But I suspect it wouldn't matter how many examples I gave, it would never be good enough, and you wouldn't be happy unless I was flagelating myself for being white and letting my DD call me a Karen.

Edited to say this was supposed to respond to Newkidintow.

It’s not an exhaustive list. And there’s plenty of evidence to support all these claims as pp have posted. Essentially, black women have to face the “double whammy” of not only being women, but of being black.

I think the earlier reference to the danger of the “strong black woman” concept is in part connected to this single issue of underestimation of pain? And this is physical danger, not emotional danger. Women die from being disbelieved.

Your dismissal of Socrates’s point kind of proves it for her. I’m never going to change my mind about the use of “Karen” but I will call out unconscious bias if I see it.

Omg thank you @Lndnmummy

Maternal death rates for black women were exactly what I was talking about when I alluded to the dangers of the “strong black woman” trope, but in all honesty that subject is so personal and triggering for me that I couldn’t bring myself to discuss it with a bunch of who’re women who can’t even acknowledge that “racist Karens” exist in the U.K., let alone this.

@IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism

I think the earlier reference to the danger of the “strong black woman” concept is in part connected to this single issue of underestimation of pain? And this is physical danger, not emotional danger. Women die from being disbelieved.

Exactly this.

The refusals to believe what we have been saying up and down this thread are perfect examples of behaviours that would be labelled “Karens” in the original sense.

I am truly sorry for your experiences, I can only imagine how triggering it must be. I am so sorry🫶🏻

I absolutely acknowledge the origin of the term. And I acknowledge the nuances of "strong black women". And I acknowledge that "Karen" in their original meaning exist in the UK.

That does not take away from the fact that in the UK among the young, it is also an ageist, misogynist term used to insult and shut down women of any age over 30 and of any colour.

Just spotted my typo in this and for some reason the “edit” button has vanished.

Just a disclaimer that I was obviously meant to write “white women” and not “who’re women” or “whore women”.

No need to be so rude. I have have never heard that black women find it difficult to get pain relief in childbirth. I find it very hard to accept but maybe it is so. My mother was a midwife . I cannot imagine that she would sanction this, or any of her colleagues. As for googling, surely it’s just not out there as fact when googling generally. It’s a very sweeping statement and a very serious one.
why is it acceptable to call a woman a ‘Karen’ when you have never met her and know nothing about her? It’s a derogatory term . Is it okay to throw some derogatory terms around but not others?

1. Would that I or other black and brown women have the luxury of picking, let alone just one thing.
2. This is not an exhaustive list, you are out of your tiny mind.
3. Get your own damn evidence.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4843483/

I did Google and came across this. It is an American study about ten years old. I’m not sure if there are similar studies in the UK. I do hope not. .

@Newkidintow it very much is the same in the U.K. There was a report published on it a few years ago and TV personality Jamelia has been a public advocate for raising awareness.

I can also tell you that both of my own births almost went horribly wrong simply because of midwives not listening to me. The sad part is it doesn’t actually change based on the race of the medical professionals themselves; racism is so deeply embedded in healthcare that black healthcare professionals are just as likely to be dismissive of black women’s pain as white healthcare professionals are. That’s why institutional racism is such a huge issue (but again, another topic for another thread.)

Just Google “black women maternal death U.K.” and you’ll see.

How is it possible though to compare whether a midwife ignores a woman’s pain based on her colour and not on the fact that she’s a bad midwife? I had shocking care in my first pregnancy. A disinterested, awful uncaring midwife. In fact a series of them. I could have put that down to race, but actually they were just not fit to be practising. I cannot see how those figures could be arrived at. Deaths would be one measure, but lack of empathy is something else.

Maternity care in the UK is failing many women. However, ethnic women are failed more. There is lots of carefully worded evidence around.

@Newkidintow
This is what happend:
@Socrateswasrightaboutvoting shared her views. You attempted to discredit her with your 'that's an extensive list' Then, due to your lack of empathy/willingness to seek to understand her, you demanded evidence.
I provided said evidence.

So we have had the 'oh thats a long list 🙄, the the where is the evidence and now we are at the stage where you don't like the tone or manner in which I provided the evidence, which you asked for

Textbook. Script. It really is.

The evidence is all documented in this 43-page House of Commons Committee report.

Black maternal health

If public figures like Jamelia and Serena Williams experienced racism in maternity services what hope for everyone else!

Read the evidence in the 7-8 links that I provided. I found you the evidence that you demanded. I can not phyiscally make you read it too.

Enough of the arrogance now. Enough.