Parents who let your toddlers run feral, how are your kids now?

[Fruitcakesanddogs]

I have a 23 month old. I am very relaxed with him. He’s messy, loud and basically a complete hurricane. I try to just let him do his thing, unless of course he’s going to harm someone else or is really annoying someone.

I know some people don’t like this kind of parenting. If that’s you then fair enough. However I am interested in hearing from parents who did take a more relaxed approach with their toddler. How did it turn out for you?

OP how were you parented? What was your childhood like? Because I don’t really think most kids have it tough or it’s intrinsically hard being a child, since I had a fairly happy childhood, so maybe that informs my parenting. Frankly I think my kids live the life of Riley and if the flip side is they are expected to put the dinosaur down when I’m ready to leave the shop then I still think that’s a pretty sweet deal whether they understand it or not.

If as toddlers I said time to get in the buggy I expected them in. If there was protest I counted to three, and then if they still weren’t in I picked them up and put them there, and ignored the crying. I didn’t care if they understood why I told them to do something, I just expected them to learn to do as they were told - I was minimal and reasonable in what I asked, but I wasn’t living my life according to the random whims of a toddler. And sometimes for their own good they need to be angry, be frustrated, be thwarted - how else do they learn to manage difficult emotions if you’re always tiptoeing round them like tiny dictators?

Being a parent is not easy.

It's your job as a parent to make decisions about things
Your child will challenge those decisions, it's what they do

It's your job as a parent to form boundaries to teach your child about life

Your child will challenge those boundaries, it's what they do

It's your job as a parent to keep your child as safe as you can
Your child will argue that they know what they're doing, it's what they do

It's not always easy being a parent, when all you want is for your child to be happy.
Sometimes, when you want your child to be happy, you have to be a parent

I’m a gentle parent but instil firm boundaries, this worked well for my dc1 who is a good teenager, misbehaves sometimes which I’m fine with but generally a good child who does well at school with no concerns. My dc2 is pre school and autistic and does not do well with my usual gentle discipline/boundary setting and if we try to be too firm she has a total meltdown. I am worried for her tbh as everything I did with dc1 does not seem to work this time around. Seems fine at nursery but home is different, very emotional. A big worry.

The shit will hit the fan if you ever have another baby.

At that point he won't know what hit him because right now he is not being given the chance to individuate himself from you and there is no competition for your attention, no sleepless nights to test your patience, and no crying baby whose needs must be met away from the toy shop (or wherever the exploring is happening) immediately.

Avoiding conflict (for instance, in the shop with the toy) means avoiding giving him the chance to start realizing you and he are separate people with separate wants and needs. As far as he's concerned, you are a more dexterous extension of him, the one who gets to drive he car and navigate the way home and provide him food, drinks, and bedrome stories. He needs to begin realizing the two of you are separate people.

I have a friend who brought up her first baby very much as you are now with yours. He had a very hard time when his younger brother came along, and the next baby too. His world was turned upside down and inside out.

The following years saw him test his parents to the limits as he engaged in a great deal of hitting and other violence toward the little brothers (they ended up with three boys) while the parents wrung their hands and dished out hugs and reassurance of their love, leaving the injured little bro crying on his own with big red bite marks on his arms, etc. It was painful to see, and it didn't stop because there were no meaningful consequences for any of it.

The parents decided to just go with the flow and let the law of the jungle prevail, meaning the little brother (and the next little brother) got beaten up and also teased and taunted a lot, and the house was frequently reduced to a bear pit, food thrown, no expectation of sitting at the table for the duration of a meal, drinks poured on younger siblings, crayon marks everywhere, blinds torn down. He was allowed to treat grandparents with disrespect ( running off with sunglasses, hats, car keys, etc). He behaved himself at school.

The parents blithely allowed the kids to watch all kinds of adversarial dreck on the TV (Paw Patrol is an example, and it only got worse as his taste broadened). Adversarial material on TV promotes absolutely no positive values; shows like PP are utter garbage. Even fare like Kratts' Creatures was tainted by the silly cartoon story lines and characters.

Kids like to imagine themselves as the characters they see, and the attitudes they pick up can be very influential. If you're going to continue to follow the parenting path you're on, you need to curate what your child is watching with extreme care, or your child's desire for something to butt heads against will find expression in the adversarial roles he is seeing. Don't assume he will identify with the force of good in what he watches or reads.

Eventually, he was old enough to join organised sports, and the various coaches ended up civilising him. In other words, he ran into rules, rules of the sports he played, and rules of the teams he played on - expectations of sportsmanship and going to all practices and matches whether he felt like it or not, and losing gracefully. All of which should have been done by his parents at home.

Is there something about conflict that you fear?

I urge you to rein it in sensitively before you have another baby, if that's on the cards. He should cooperate with the stroller and the carseat, and he should be able to sit for a meal and go shopping peacefully. There's no need to suddenly start snapping your fingers and demanding obedience, but gentle expectations of sitting for a meal and leaving a toy in a shop on your schedule could be introduced, with acknowledgement of good listening ('good listening' is extremely important, the foundation of all the rest of establishing your authority) dished out when it happens.

You need to work really hard on fostering listening, and you need to teach what listening behaviour looks like - looking at you when you speak to him, responding when you call his name, and remaining with you while he responds. Don't let him ignore you.

It's lovely to feel that the two of you are so close, that you are so in tune with him and his needs. But he has left the womb and his major need in the coming years is to understand that you and he are separate beings. He needs to understand that you have needs that are separate from his and that the wider society has expectations which you need to explain, and offer practice in identifying and gping along with those expectations.

I am not sure what to make of your description ‘feral’ as that implies they are out of control and savage, maybe neglected?

We were gentle respectful parents. We had boundaries in place, taught our children to be respectful and considerate, and were happy to say no but in a way that was kind. We offered choices to our children often, didn’t worry if they had the odd meltdown and hugged rather than scolded when our children were angry - recognising that worked better.

We now have adult and teen dc that are very well liked, with a huge set of friends, accomplished great grades and are very much in touch with who they are. The essence of their characters and creativity has not been lost in the school system or beaten out of them. One is very gifted creatively and is a wild little thing - still messy but very loveable. All have developed real empathy and confidence in themselves and expect to br treated well. None drink, take drugs or do stupid or dangerous things.

For us, it’s been a total success and we enjoyed their childhoods and have a very close bond now they are older.

MN are obsessed with shoving children into buggies. It’s a boundary, apparently.

THIS
With bells on.

A copy of this should be handed out to all new parents.

In answer to your question @Fruitcakesanddogs this won’t go down well but I do think MN fixate a bit on the word ‘boundaries’ and maybe I’m being overly persnickety but to me, a boundary is ‘line you do not cross.’ I DO have them but not many. I would say my absolute line in the sand ones are

No kicking - went through a phase of this when eg going in the car seat. (I would also say for biting, hitting but these don’t happen here, it was kicking for some reason)

Do not touch baby DDs head - will try to grab her

You have to have your teeth brushed.

There probably are others but there are a lot of things that to be honest I would prefer DS to do or not do but I can’t enforce. MN would snarl ‘you are the parent. Parent him. Where are your boundaries?’ But I really don’t see the point of a battle I cannot win for the sake of - what? Appeasing MN? So for instance, I do get fed up (if only inwardly) of DS taking toys into the kitchen. I’m constantly falling over them as if I’m carrying DD I can’t see. The more I tell him not to the more he will do it. Yes, I suppose I could take away every toy he takes into the kitchen, but where am I going to put them? And after hours of this, has he actually learned anything? I don’t think so, to be honest. Likewise things like sitting at the table - DS is actually pretty good at this but it’s an example of something you can’t really force.

DS seems pretty good by the standards of my NCT group, although I do still have to keep an eye when he’s in a busy place and if he’s tired as he will sometimes push other children if ‘provoked.’ I’ve come to realise that if I put on a big show for the benefit of others parents it makes the situation worse (and making a fuss of the other child has never worked!) so I now just say a sharp ‘kind hands’ and move on. Dragging DS out doesn’t teach him the error of his ways but it does damage our relationship.

Above all I think have the confidence to parent in the way you deem best.

At his age he does understand you, but you dont understand him. Thats why a lot of two year olds have tantrums, they are communicating but the adults in their lives are not trying to understand their method of communication.

"No darling, thats not yours, put the dinosaur back please" He WILL understand, he just doesnt want to, and frankly Tesco isnt a toy library where he can have a nice toy to play with while you do your shopping and then it goes back on the shelf.

Yes, my nephew, and to put it bluntly he's a little shit.
He's grown now and not the most likeable person. Self centred, spoilt, not many friends.

By the way not setting boundaries and disciplining your children in any sort of way is nothing short of lazy shoddy parenting.

I think it’s super interesting you don’t think he understands what you’re saying. I did have a very early talker but I could absolutely explain to her to put down a toy and she’d do it at that age. My nephew is 18 months old and also understands similar. “Time to go bye bye, say bye bye to the Dino! We’ll miss you Dino!” And the Dino gets put down. We had no 2yo tantrums (she saved that for 3) and I don’t think I ever snatched things off her, more like, “mummy needs to see the Dino now, can I have it please”.

Personally I see kids without boundaries at 5 now and they are so unpleasant compared to my DC and generally seem very selfish, out of control and kind of mean.

My parenting style is not perfect and mainly comes from understanding the personality of the child.

Most people would say I have a soft parenting style but I ensured boundaries. My approach was to always listen to DD and to ensure she could explore but we still had to live. I still had to get things done (e.g. going to the shops, going to restaurants etc) - which I didn’t struggle with too much - more so natural tantrums if she was sleepy but from 3-5 I didn’t put up with bad behaviour. Luckily time out was enough for discipline. People tell me she is very well behaved 10+ years later and she is so confident she speaks to adults and can hold a good conversation. Boundaries haven’t ruined her!

OP you say the world is tough. Home should be a safe place but it should also prepare you for the world. I had a conversation with my DD, now a young teen - about committing to tasks and she mentioned that being told to go to her Saturday activities - whether she wanted to or not (we had many moments where I’ve had to be more pushy) - has given her the attitude to try things even when you are not in the mood (she didn’t want to go to her after school activities - had the chance to skip. But didn’t).

we also have a very open relationship but she knows boundaries.

As your DC gets older - what will you or won’t you allow them to do “because they want to”.

A friend of mine had (and still has) a similar parenting approach to you - her DC is now 6 and we went on a very long walk - with another 6 year old and a few tweens - and her DD had the biggest melt down - it completely killed the mood. On a normal day her DD is well behaved and emotionally intelligent but has been taught that she is the centre of her own world and everything else comes after. So guess what happens when it doesn’t go her way…

I really hope she becomes well rounded as opposed to a horror. It stresses her mum out as she suddenly becomes a terror if we are out and she doesn’t get her way.

we cannot rely on society and school to teach our children that “life is unfair”. Yes we protect them but we are raising future citizens. You shouldn’t snatch things off them or anything like that - yes it is good that you are modelling good behaviour - but also don’t be afraid to put your foot down when needed.

Your DC is still young and I hope you do enforce boundaries - they will love you for it when they grow up.

Also wanted to add a great tip I was given was to have rules but to give them choices within those rules.

Not sure where I read it but because the toddler years and preschool years feels “out of control” for the 3-5 year olds - in terms of feeling like you want to explore and the communication struggle a few parents have mentioned - give them choice - but within reason.

e.g. If you are going to the park, it is cold and they do not want to wear a coat but don’t want to “OK you can choose between your pink jacket or this woolly jumper.”

at the shop - if there is a trolly “you can sit in the trolly and put the shopping at the back or you can sit in the trolly and hold mummy’s special shopping list”

Two choices - none of them are worse (for you) than the other but gives them an option and some feeling of autonomy.

@Crabacus I wish your DM had known me when I was a young mum, and explained it like that to me...

(I think it should be a legal requirement that every parent and child book has to start with that quote on their front page!)

No one enjoys forcing their child into a pushchair but I’ll be damned if my day revolves around the whims and fancies of my toddler. I’m guessing you don’t work (not a criticism, just how would your approach work if he doesn’t want to get in the pushchair/car seat etc and you need to leave for work?).

I consider myself more a relaxed type of parent, I’ve never done nap or feed schedules, I coslept, fed to sleep, no sleep training etc but if I want my 2 year old to get in the pushchair/car seat/put a toy down so I can leave then unfortunately for her that is what is happening. It sounds like you’ve got lucky so far in that he’s not gone rigid when going in the car seat but it’ll come 😂 then surely you can’t go by your usual plan cause you could potentially be stuck away from home?

Boundaries are good for toddlers.

I had a very loving, demonstrative, ‘in charge’ mother - she is long gone, and while there are some things I do as a parent that are different from her, broadly speaking, I model my approach on hers.

I’m reflecting, and considering whether I would have preferred to have been parented by someone using your approach.

Without a shadow of doubt, I can say ‘no’.

I would feel untethered and unsure of my place in the world, as a small person who doesn’t understand how things work and is looking to the adults to understand things and figure them out.

It’s easy to say this style of parenting is down to laziness, but I think that is too simplistic.

I think this style of parenting is usually a combination of rebelling against their own overly strict parents, and/or a strong desire to be liked by one’s children (often because of the aforementioned parenting, and not liking their own strict parent/s). Wanting a very different parent-child relationship than the one/s they had.

What this approach risks doing, is prioritising being liked by the child, over the child being liked by their own peers and everyone else who comes into their orbit. That’s pretty selfish, and certainly doesn’t serve the child well.

You can’t expect to wake up on X date and start to apply boundaries, and expect the child to happily adhere to them. Why would they? The status quo - them always getting their own way - has completely changed, without warning. That’s why most people start gently explaining and ‘enforcing’ them from the get go. They’re playing the long game.

Toddlers / children / young people need guidance to become people other people want to be around, include, hire, spend time with, have any sort of resilience. That’s our job.

From another perspective, is it chicken v egg? I have older children, beautifully behaved always. Along comes my youngest with my second husband... he is wild. My (or anyone's) parenting strategies do not work. It looks like he is feral and it looks like I let him run wild. The reality is he is ND but not noticeable enough be seen by people judging, he is highly intelligent and runs rings around everyone. I am judged often, he is a whole different kettle of fish from my first batch! I probably would have judged too while I sat there with my beautiful behaved first children.

One of my sister in law has three feral kids.
They wrecked the house. I remember she bought a lovely sideboard, which was missing its doors less than a week later due to the kids swinging on them. They would use the sofas and chairs as trampolines, swing on the kitchen cupboard doors until they came off, draw on the walls, the list goes on.
I actually banned them from my house when they were little!
One of them, when he was around three, kicked my mum hard on her leg because she took away a packet of biscuits that he helped himself to.
My parents used to dread them visiting because they'd run riot. If my parents told them off, however gently, they would start screaming that they hated them, they were old and they smell etc. ( They weren't old and they certainly didn't smell ) then throw stuff around, like the books in the bookcase.
As they got older, they used to tell their parents and teachers to fuck off.
They were bullies who thought nothing of giving their partners and kids a kicking when they were adults.
They spent time in and out of prison ( one is still inside )
One is a thieving junkie, one is a raging alcoholic / junkie and the third is doing time for murder.
All because their parents were incapable of saying no or instilling discipline and boundaries.

You need to start being authorative (i know will hate this word) now. Its okay to go with the flow now, and not decide to use the buggy but drive. But in a few short years he’ll be at school. How are you going to get him to school, if he decides he’d rather stay at home? You’ve already this method isn’t working, and he’s not yet two!

please don’t allow your child to be the one shouting and running around when you wait in a doctors surgery, for example.

I'm with you on avoiding tantrums through being reasonable and treating my toddler with the respect any human should be treated rather than dragged around. However, I do think that in some areas you might be doing him a disservice. For instance, does he not understand when you say we can't take the dinosaur because it's not our dinosaur? Or we're going to see the ducks, quick let's get in the pram? Obviously abstract reasons like time in minutes to get somewhere he won't get, but I would have thought general reasons like that he would even if he can't verbalise a full reply.

So when you’re at the airport and need to get to the gate how do you do it if you can’t put him in the buggy and March for 10 minutes? Isn’t it really awkward standing in a shop for ages letting him play with a toy you’ve got no intention of buying? You must have all the time in the world this is baffling to me. Honestly I was always respectful to my children but was quite capable of saying put that down please we’re going now in a shop, or can you get in your buggy please we’ve got to get somewhere quickly. Your making life very hard for yourself and for your child’s future teachers.

I think authoritative, the one who is reliable in their knowledge, gets conflated with authoritarian, the wielding of complete power, no questions permitted.

A parent should be the former not the latter. There's nothing to hate.

DSC. They’re awful. They also cannot cope with life/any kind of request or pressure.

The feral behaviour of their youth now manifests as massive anxiety (and rudeness).

It’s a failed experiment.

Also, regarding your mum “joking” he’s feral - she’s not joking. She’s trying to tell you something. I suggest you listen or your childcare options may not be available for much longer.