Parents who let your toddlers run feral, how are your kids now?

[Fruitcakesanddogs]

I have a 23 month old. I am very relaxed with him. He’s messy, loud and basically a complete hurricane. I try to just let him do his thing, unless of course he’s going to harm someone else or is really annoying someone.

I know some people don’t like this kind of parenting. If that’s you then fair enough. However I am interested in hearing from parents who did take a more relaxed approach with their toddler. How did it turn out for you?

I think the reason I’m reading this thread with an eyebrow raised (if indeed I could raise an eyebrow) is that forcing a child into a buggy or car seat is not (to me) discipline or a boundary. It’s pissing them off, but is a two year old really going to sit and muse over the error of his ways in not picking up a toy?
The thing is that by the time a 2 year old is wandering around a shop, helping themselves to toys, deciding if and when they want to let go of stuff that's not being bought , the child is given total freedom to decide if they feel like putting it down, or if they're ready to leave etc the parent has chosen to create a situation that's bigger than it needs to be. Their inaction and passivity is teaching the child that the child sets the agenda and the parent sheepishly follows.

I'd describe our parenting as gentle/authoritative. To me the role of the gentle/authoritative parent is to set the child up for success and teach them how to behave, so if I know I have a handsy 2 year old, then they aren't put in a situation where touching/not touching is placed on their (developmentally impulsive) shoulders. So they'd be either walk next to me, hold my hands, be in a buggy, or in a sling, or on reigns, or I choose not to take them into a toy shop, but the responsibility lies with me as the parent.

No young children are perfect though, so there's always times where they will slip a hand or they might touch, but at that point the boundary is "keep you hands off the stock" / "let's put that back" and then as the parent the boundary is that i ensure the item is put back because that's my responsibility as a parent.

That's not my child's responsibility to fix. They're 2. They might be disappointed and that's ok. I'm not going to shame them for their feelings, I'll acknowledge their disappointment if they really liked the toy, but we aren't buying it and helping themselves to stuff in shops is not ok.

At this point I might decide as a parent that DC needs to be put in the buggy because they're finding it hard to manage their impulses (which is fine, they're 2!). I'd put DC in the buggy not out of a desire to punish or shame, but to help them manage their impulses because that's my job as a parent. I don't expect them to sit and muse over "I'm in the pram because I was touching toys". The buggy isn't a punishment.If they're finding it hard and it's too tempting them having lots of toys at eye and hand height, then I have a duty to support them to have a successful trip. If that means putting them in a buggy, so be it.

It’s certainly not intended to be obtuse @BertieBotts . But there are quite literally hundreds of posts here with ‘my friend / sil / neighbour was like you OP and … <insert tale of doom>’

I have physically had to force my DS sometimes but it’s always been absolutely horrible for all parties and I don’t for a moment think he’s learned anything meaningful from the experience!

Really really interesting that you use the words ‘snatch off him’ to describe you putting a toy that is not his and he shouldn’t be playing with in a shop back onto the shelf where it belongs.
why do you think he has the right to be picking up things from a shop and walking round with them? And why do you use such evocative language for something really simple as, removing the toy with a ‘no thank you’ and putting it back on the shelf?!
I was so with you really, my daughter is pretty wild. That’s the word I use for her, she’s a free spirit and she’s very secure in what she wants and thinks. That doesn’t mean I allow her to walk into a shop, pick up something that does not belong to us and I have no intention of buying and walk around with it?! If you didn’t allow him to do that, you wouldn’t then have to ‘snatch’ it off him. I’m super intrigued by the use of that word…it’s exceptionally over the top!

I’m not for a moment suggesting you or anyone else would do it to upset or shame your children @LolaSmiles . But equally, to me it’s something you do because you absolutely have to, for safety reasons usually, it isn’t discipline in the sense that anyone is learning from it. So for instance back in July I had to take my DS off a bouncy castle; he was not happy and had a pretty epic tantrum which I’m sure would have solved overpopulation issues in a heartbeat if it had been broadcast 😅

It had to be done, his time was up and other children were waiting, but I don’t think next time he’ll think ‘oh, last time I had to be taken off it, I will jump off smartly and cheerily because of my mums wonderful boundaries.’ (Incidentally, the next time he went on a bouncy castle he did come off when I said so, albeit reluctantly. It wasn’t boundaries, just getting older and more mature. Slowly!)

@Summermeadowflowers

yes I agree re pushchair. If it’s not necessary I would sweat it at all - after all not being in a pushchair has wonderful natural consequence of getting tired from walking;) which may encourage a child to get into the pushchair when they are tired.
this of course will require building extra time for getting somewhere (so at the age of 2 I did all shopping online and rarely subscribed to ton of events that need to be there ON TIME (like endless baby classes), so that rare occasions when we really need to be on time were easier to work around).

now for example a car seat is safety so non negotiable. But a pushchair is usually not

I think the other thing (sorry for going on!) is that I see a lot on here a lot of sniffiness about parents ‘being scared to say no.’

I don’t think many are but I think for a lot of toddlers and especially those in the 20-30 month age group, ‘no’ is a challenge. My own DS is getting better but I do try to avoid using it as often he will then repeatedly try to do whatever it is I don’t want him to do! So ‘splash inside the bath DS’ is much more effective than ‘ NO!’ when he tries to throw water over the side. Although I do forget; I’m human.

I see what you mean Summermeadowflowers.I think it depends on what threshold people have.

I don't think car seat/buggy is something that only is used at the point where there is a safety situation. I used it at any point I felt it was required to support DC.

For me it was much kinder for me to take the empathy approach, acknowledge DC was finding something hard, then hold whatever the boundary was (eg not touching/the expectation of walking next to me and holding my hand), and put them in the buggy than to get into either the authoritarian 'BECAUSE I SAY SO' conversations or the pathetically grovelling 'stop touching, I've told you not to touch, please stop touching, the lady over there doesn't want you touching" or the permissive approach of 'you touch as much as you like and when you're finished grabbing what you like round the shop then let me know'.

I found it worked well with DC to say "hey you seem to be finding it hard to keep your hands off the toys. I'm going to help you by putting you in the buggy so you can't reach them" and if they were upset that's ok. I'd acknowledge it, but the boundary is there.

Did they remember perfectly for next time? Who knows probably not, but I'd say over the toddler years they had a mix of successful trips that didn't involve the buggy/sling, and others where they were put in to help, and now I don't have to worry about taking them out.

For instance, the ‘two choices’ has never worked here. It is a great suggestion but DS either ignores you or says no to both - ‘red jumper or green coat?’ ‘NO wed jumper! NO COAT!’ OK then!

Ha, this was the exact example I was about to give! I’d ask “Do you want to walk home from the park or go on your scooter?” and she’d just say “I want to stay at the park” 😆

I remember another parent smugly explaining how her parenting techniques worked on her daughter and every time I explained how mine reacted in response she said “well obviously you’re just not doing it right” - as though all children were basically clones of one another and reacted in exactly the same way. Some children are just naturally more compliant than others (I see this in just my own two!) and it’s totally unrealistic to assume that any parenting technique will have the same effect on all children.

BUT I do think MN (and maybe the world in general) is a bit obsessed with ensuring that toddlers/children always follow adult directions to the letter, I don't think that you have to have this dynamic at all. It is possible to differentiate, even from very young (around 3 or so, I would say) between situations where there is room for negotiation, and situations where you have to follow instructions NOW, however, even in the "do it now" situations, you can ALWAYS ask questions later.

Lastly I tend to think that relying on directions in itself can be a bit of a fool's errand - I don't particularly insist on obedience to verbal directions (with two exceptions: Stop/no/freeze I expect to be followed immediately and we can absolutely have a discussion about it even immediately, but you need to stop first THEN we talk) and the situation where I say look: This is a dangerous activity, I need you to do what I say straight away. (This one I do for stuff like cooking, DIY, crafts, maybe water play etc).

If there is some kind of boundary issue outside of these things, particularly safety, I don't even frame it as a direction to be followed or not (other than the previous examples) I would just generally take action - I think this is from the How To Talk books - they call it "Take Action Without Insult" or something like that. So instead of saying "If you hit your brother again I will take away your train set" and then waiting for the child to comply or not and then punish or praise respectively, you just physically go and prevent the hit either by removing the item from child's hand, interrupting aggressor by crouching down to speak to them, picking up the victim, placing yourself between them, blocking the hit, gently taking hold of aggressor child's arm, whatever is safe and appropriate and possible, and combine that with a statement like "NO hitting" or (the more Janet Lansbury) "I won't let you hit your brother."

Everything else is basically open for discussion, and I do try and see their perspective and I do try to take it into account but it is about balancing needs, and I'll happily discuss this with them (if they are old enough to understand this) because I think that is part of helping them learn empathy and not just thinking about themselves. And no, I don't think this does lead them to expect that with every other adult, though some children do seem to find this more difficult to understand and in that case then it's worth talking and explaining about different roles. Because even as adults, usually the degree to which we expect to be given and follow instructions from others varies hugely depending on the relationship and situation anyway.

@ZebraDanios honestly I think that is a thing on here. That if your child doesn’t respond to a particular MN approved form of advice it is because you are doing it wrong. It is really easy to assume that because something worked for you then it works for all children - I’m having difficulty with potty training at the moment, and have been reading threads and while there’s some helpful advice the number of posters who just bark orders at those struggling is notable.

My own DS has always had good understanding, but for all toddlers that’s only going to go so far. A toddler can understand’ put the toy down.’ They can’t really understand complex things relating to ownership, how much the toy costs and so on. Maybe this will inspire a new round of abuse 😅 but I don’t really take DS into places like Smyths because of course he’s going to want everything and be upset when told no. I also don’t know if it’s just me, but while we do have a buggy for DS I could probably count the number of times we take it out with us in the last eighteen months on two hands. I get that if you live somewhere with lots of things within walking distance you might but I don’t think it would occur to me to drive to a shop, put DS in the pushchair, push him round the shop then back to car.

Oh yes I know what you mean - it is a bit silly, as though that is the single thing that caused it! When it is probably a whole load of complicated interrelated factors.

I do think with the "already permissive parents attracted to gentle parenting" thing the problem is that the people promoting this stuff have the names all wrong (Apart from How To Talk which I think is brilliant on all counts, including a name that somehow perfectly appeals to everyone at once)

If you're wanting to aim your info at too-controlling parents but help them be more gentle then you don't want to name it "gentle parenting" as this is going to sound like it will be ineffective and instantly turn them off, you need to name it something like "How to get cooperation without shouting" and if you're wanting to teach too-gentle parents to be more confident, then stop naming it things like "parent effectiveness training" or "123 magic formula" that makes it sound like you see behaviour as a problem to be solved, and call it something like "communicating clearly with children".

Hitting / pushing etc can be a tricky one, depending on where you are and the angle of the child to you. I stopped DS giving another child a real wallop a few weeks ago just in the nick of time (in fairness to DS, the other child was trying to shove him out of a toy car) by doing a Usain Bolt impersonation across the room but there have been times I’ve been stood right next to him and haven’t quite managed to intervene in time because my line of sight was obscured - this is particularly true now when I’m holding DD and was a real challenge in the latter stages of pregnancy. He is thankfully getting better but there was a phase between roughly 18 months and two and a half where I thought I was going to have to save for his bail money rather than university. There are some things that they do just need to grow out of. I don’t mean stand back and let it happen but equally all the ‘strategies’ in the world aren’t going to help if they just aren’t developmentally ready.

@LolaSmiles

your example with touching and buggy is actually perfect setting of boundary in gentle parenting

I have an old friend who has parented in this way, with mixed results.

She herself is laid back to the point of horizontal, and her eldest (who is now 16) was and is exactly the same. Was a lovely kid and is a lovely teenager.

The younger two (14 and 11) are... not so nice. Rude, noisy, aggressive and demanding.

The middle kid is shaping up a little (I think his peers are doing it for him, because they won't tolerate his shit the way his mother will), but the youngest is really awful (and trust me, I feel bad saying that about a child). I will no longer have her in my house after I caught her trying to attach clothes pegs to the tail of one of my cats.

I don't have kids myself (although I do have nieces and nephews of a similar age) and I think that, as a family, they're a fascinating example of nature v nurture.

I think the point is that reason doesn't always work with toddlers and it doesn't. Sometimes they just want/don't want something and you just have to override them. And sometimes it's not even safe to reason with them so you don't.

@Fruitcakesanddogs

So I guess my reasoning is …. we’ve walked into a shop, and he is excited and wants to pick up a dinosaur for example. I don’t mind him looking at all the different toys and picking them up. I’m in no rush. 5 minutes pass and I want to leave the shop now but he’s still holding a dinosaur and walking round with it. So far his communication has not been good enough yet for me to explain that I want to leave the shop and need him to put the dinosaur back.

I'm sorry but without considering anything else, shops aren't a stay and play. When I go buy a brand new toy, I buy it because it's brand new, clean and unused. Don't really fancy the idea of someone else's kid having played with it for a solid 5 minutes running around the shop with it. If I worked in that shop when you were in I would expect you to be purchasing it, letting your kid play like that is not normal. Go to a stay and play or soft play if you want that experience. In fact I recommend it so he can start to learn that other children exist in the world and sharing is a thing. Also you can take a toy off a child without snatching, say "please can I have that? Thank you" and gently take it off them.

Aside from that, your 18 month old can understand SO much. They are still very young, sharing can't be expected and communication is often not that great yet but If they don't understand, you teach them. This is what going outside means, this is what I mean when I say put things back. When mummy asks something it's important to use our listening ears. Yes they will struggle, yes they might not like it, he may have a tantrum, but your kid will come across many things in life they don't like and they have to learn how to handle all feelings otherwise they are going to become self centred and emotionally immature as adults!

When my kid was 0-3 I followed big little feelings and I suggest that you have a search, gentle parenting with boundaries in place. Honestly I don't agree with everything they say for example. They say don't force pleases thank you and sorry but actually I feel that's important. You are in charge! It's up to you to raise your kid not your kid to raise himself. After 3 my daughter became difficult and it just wasn't appropriate anymore. I still okay her feelings and we have a lovely bond and lots of loving family time together but we are in charge not her despite how many buttons she tries to push!

IME it’s quite unusual for reason to work!

My disquiet with physical force - and to reiterate I have done it, I will do it - but it’s a last resort - is that it really escalates the situation. I do think I have a particularly determined child in DS, but no matter how calm you are, physical force makes him rage and it’s thoroughly unpleasant. It’s much better to try other strategies, for us anyway.

Feral kids turn into feral adults. I’m not an ideal parent by any means but getting kids to sit down and eat meals properly, be polite, know when to shut up not scream and not run around fighting like wildebeasts is basic.

The teenagers that had parents that were too permissive now call their mums “cunts” and generally treat them like shit, fight with people, lie and have poor educational achievement. But that may just be the ones that I know.

Oddly enough my call centre years taught me a valuable lesson about the impact of the word No, along with the word Sorry.

When you open the response with a No, to anyone of any age it's an instant negative so anything you say that follows on from that negative has already made the audience go on the defensive for not getting what they want. Therefore they are less likely to listen to your explanation as to why No is the response because in their own heads they are already formulating their objection to your No. So I began to use softer alternatives or a precursor such as "I'm not sure, let me look that up" and then when I had DS it was already ingrained as an automatic to explain before I said no. "I don't think we've time to see the ducks today but will we plan to go tomorrow? And the upside is that my No is always accepted because I don't use it except when it's important.

Similarly with the word sorry. We've a habit of saying "sorry but..." when someone's being a cheeky fucker to us but even the use of the word in that context can give rise to the person assuming you are in the wrong because you're the one saying Sorry. So I would say "gosh, I'm flat out today so can't get around to your errand today, how about tomorrow?" rather than "Sorry but I'm too busy today" At work I don't say "sorry, he's away from his desk" it's "I'm getting no reply there unfortunately"

Having said that, saying sorry when required can't be underestimated and I often apologise to DS when it's appropriate. My parents never did even when they were blatantly wrong and I always found that so unjust!

And so? Not everything in life is a "teachable moment" sometimes you just have to keep them safe and that might mean forcing the medication down, the seat belt on or carrying them kicking and screaming out of the burning building.

And so, if not everything is a teachable moment and it’s only about the child safety, why are so many posters answering with ‘my friend was JUST like you OP and now her child is …’

I can think of five or six occasions in the last twelve months when DS has had to be physically removed from somewhere or forced to do something and every single one has been horrific. I have done it and I will do it if I need to. I don’t think not doing it is dooming DS to a toddler ASBO though: the opposite.

Yes, but at 18-24 months it's fairly common for them to instantly physically retaliate towards other children, because they don't have much language yet. I think most people who have any experience of young children at all understand this perfectly well and will be tolerant of it to an extent, as long as you are doing SOMETHING, standing by going "Oh they are just toddlers, what are they like" is not usually an acceptable response, but people don't particularly mind whether your response is to remove the hitter sharply and tell them "No! Hitting is naughty!" and put them in time out, or whether you intervene ASAP and prevent the situation from continuing, but then redirect the child and explain why/talk to them about their behaviour/talk to them about the effect on the other child/simply distract them without judgement. Most of these approaches would work for most children to have stopped resorting to hitting (at least with children outside their own family, it seems to continue longer between siblings) by around 2 or 2.5 at the latest.

I think people are a bit judgy on the extremes of the scale - e.g. someone removes the hitter and smacks them as a punishment, or removes the hitter and distracts them with something that is seen as a reward, like a biscuit. But certainly anything between these is generally appreciated by other parents, doing nothing is the problem.

You find keeping your child safe horrific? I don't think you can mean that. So you find the idea of thwarting his will horrific. That's different and honestly a bit disturbing.

Depends on the child's nature too. Know siblings who had very strict parents - mother was the boss, they never answered back, stable home, regular church goers etc. Family of three children. The eldest girl is okay, grew into a very pleasant woman, has a decent job, lovely home etc. Son , no qualifications, lots of fights in school, went off the rails with weed etc in late teens, became a right waster and slob, never held a job down for five minutes. Youngest girl is a horror, convictions for violence, benefit fraud etc, a deeply unlikeable person.

How do you get that variation in one family with one mother who was a disciplinarian?

Loving the middle way analogy. We were firm but loving and listened to them. Two hard working fun teens. Three separate families asked to take dd2 on holiday last summer as a companion for their child.