Parents who let your toddlers run feral, how are your kids now?

[Fruitcakesanddogs]

I have a 23 month old. I am very relaxed with him. He’s messy, loud and basically a complete hurricane. I try to just let him do his thing, unless of course he’s going to harm someone else or is really annoying someone.

I know some people don’t like this kind of parenting. If that’s you then fair enough. However I am interested in hearing from parents who did take a more relaxed approach with their toddler. How did it turn out for you?

Ditto@Pipsquiggle - I teach KS2 now, but I genuinely think EYFS and KS1 teachers need a salary increase to account for the enormous efforts they have to put in to teach so many permissively parented children about boundaries, this on top of covering the curriculum.

So your 6 year old boy has NEVER been disciplined, is scruffy in his appearance, and has no structured bedtime and plays until the early hours in the morning (wtf)
That's just lazy parenting. That isn't even parenting.

Poor kid.

Yes I do think that parenting communication can be confusing for parents.

I think a useful way to think about this is to think about the Eastern religious idea of "Middle Way". I can't remember the exact quote so apologies for parahprasing, but a student says to a teacher something like:

"Why do you always give such inconsistent advice? One day you tell somebody to go left, the next day you tell somebody to go right. Which is it?" and the teacher responds: "Neither too far left or too far right is the correct path. My role is to help you find the middle path. That means that for someone who is veering off to the left, I tell them to go right. And for someone going too far to the right, I tell them to go left. My goal for them both is the same, but they are starting in different places."

The "left" and "right" in parenting are that some parents are too permissive whereas some parents are too controlling. In fact, you need to be understanding (but not so much that you are revolving everything around the child) AND guiding (but not so harshly that you are crushing the child's spirit or trying to squash their individuality). If you are having problems in parenting, then it's probably going to be because you are veering too far to one of these extremes and you need guidance to point you back to the middle way. Which is actually quite wide - there are many ways to parent successfully.

I read in a book, and this was a suprise to me, that around 80% of parents who are having problems are on the side of being too controlling. This might be why so much of the popular parenting advice seems to assume that parents are being too rigid and need to relax boundaries and expectations, that parents are reacting too quickly and too harshly and should be more curious and empathetic, that parents are projecting too much of their own desires onto their children and instead should listen and see their child's perspective more.

The problem is, if you are part of the other 20%, then reading all of this advice is going to 1, be extremely validating (yes!! I'm right! I DON'T need to be stricter like everyone is saying!) but 2, also counterproductive because if you already have relaxed boundaries, you don't want to relax them more, if you already pull back on reacting when you should, then you don't need to react less, if you're already taking your child's distress very very much to heart and seeing them as this big huge scary thing that you need to avoid them ever experiencing, then you don't need to be more empathetic as you're already struggling, likely because of all these things and so heading more in that direction - you're going to end up drowning in it.

Following the middle way means understanding where you're starting, not assuming that one side (structure or empathy) is the sole answer, you need elements of both.

The problem is that messaging can be polarised. It all tends to be "Go right!! Right is the right path! Left is terrible and will lead to all these problems!" and "Go left!! For goodness' sake don't go right! That will lead to all these problems!"

@BertieBotts That may be some of the best parenting advice I’ve ever read.

This is absolute negligence.

My friend followed gentle parenting approaches. Her dc was intelligent and good natured and my friend had endless patience for explaining why something had to be done. She would listen if dc questioned the rule/reason, discuss different viewpoints, enter into negotiations with dc if dc had another idea or a counter argument. For OP's toy in the shop example my friends dc might negotiate to have the toy bought for them so that they didn't have to put it down (or the dc would at least try some kind of reasoning). All fine, all good, parent's choice.

However, ultimately I never invited the dc for a play date because I did not have the time or inclination to do the same and friend's dc was annoyingly persistant. As they grew older the dc's 'intelligent reasoning and questioning' started to look like very manipulative behaviour, always pushing back until they got their own way, or at least something that was not the original starting point - particularly with other children.

It was interesting to observe because I'd worked with someone (new to a role and very junior) who had a similar approach. It was exhausting and f'ing irritating. Why did we have to do x, wasn't there another way to do it, it would be better if... There may have been times when they were right but everything took so long while we were expected to patiently explain years of history, or the need for standard proceedures or compliance. In my head I would be screaming "one time, just one time, please JFDI" It was a blessed relief when she decided the job wasn't for her and went back to university.

@Hungrycaterpillarsmummy and yet somehow he’s never once been given any sort of behaviour warning at school, is academically on the bright side of average and well liked by his peers and teachers. He cried the other week because he had a virus and was gutted he was going to miss school and his music lessons. I think he’s great (I expect all mums think their sons are great) but given the fact mine has a condition that can make it harder to process the world around him and yet is so sweet natured and kind and loving I think he’s extra great.

He’s nowhere near to being a father or a husband, he’s six - a very young child who needs a full night’s sleep and it’s your job as his parent to ensure he gets it, which you’re not doing. I’m sure he’s a sweet kid (aren’t they all?) but that doesn’t mean you don’t have to instil him with discipline, which isn’t synonymous with punishment.

@moderndilemma Could that just be a personality thing though? I say this because I do quite a bit of the parenting you’re describing and I have one child who questions everything (at least she does at home - she does nothing of the sort at school) and one who just accepts everything as it is.

I think we need to be careful neither to give ourselves too much credit nor too much blame for how our kids turn out - I don’t believe you can really “mould” a child with parenting, you can only work with what you have. That’s not to say you don’t try to change their behaviour if it’s unacceptable or damaging, obviously! - just that your approach to how you do that will vary according to their personality.

@IsThereABarUpThere Not really. His behaviour is flawless at school, he’s playing music at an insane level for his age and enjoys theatre trips, city breaks and stuff almost every weekend. He’s bossing life really. Negligence involves children’s needs not being met, not them being a bit eccentric and sneaking out of bed to play with lego of an evening.

@MiddleParking of course he’s washed and put to bed of an evening. The little toad rarely stays there though. He’s always been quite nocturnal, pretty sure it’s related to his diagnosis. But I can’t get worked up about him busying himself when he can’t sleep since he’s reliably up and ready for school without drama every single day. I wish I could function on so little sleep. I’m the opposite and an actual zombie on less than 6 hours though. It’s what it is.

Blimey, I got my baby in a routine from very young (once her circadian rhythm was more regular - starting from say 4 months) as, frankly, her going to sleep when she wanted meant my life was on hold , I got nothing done and I needed down time every evening with my husband who was previously a passing ship. She woke up with a big smile on her face and better mood. Well rested children tend to be happier in my experience. Overtired was the worst emotion to have to deal with, imo.

Part of taking a gentle/authoritative parenting approach instead of authoritarian means working on ourselves to decide on good boundaries and anticipate situation.

I think the more permissive end of parents on here seem to place far too much responsibility on their children that's developmentally inappropriate

For example, in the shop scenario the OP seems to leave it up to DC to touch or not touch, to put the toy they're not buying down or not, it's up to him. He's a child. He's, by development, impulsive.

Placing responsibility for not touching, putting toys that shouldn't have been picked up in the first place, when to leave etc in the hands of a pre-schooler is ridiculous. It's passing the parental responsibilities onto a child.

Yes thank you, that’s exactly what I meant!

It depends on the child, I guess. My DC1 was a strong-willed, sociable, confident toddler who just wanted to be everywhere, do everything and explore everything. DC1 is also very tall for their age. So I guess I did have quite firm boundaries in place for DC1 because it was necessary to keep them and others safe. DC1 was just always quite noticeable (due to size/ being very active etc) so any misbehaviour was probably picked up on more quickly than with other children, where it might have gone under the radar a bit more. A push or shove from DC1 could have completely floored a child the same age so we did perhaps monitor a bit more closely than other parents and were completely zero tolerance on physical violence, no second chances.

I regret perhaps coming down so hard on DC1 in some respects. DC1's size meant I and others treated DC1 as you would an older child. I'd maybe give a little more leeway and be slightly more relaxed nowadays. But I also tried to give a lot of love and make things fun and give choices, in between the strict boundaries. And I can't really complain about the outcome. At 5, DC1 can be cheeky and a pain, but is also a laid-back 'gentle giant' (teacher's description) who is great fun and caring and considerate towards others. Still very active though 😬!

Giving him a bedtime routine of washing him and putting him to bed, while not getting worked up if he’s not asleep the whole night because of diagnosed SEN, is not him ‘never having been disciplined in any notable way’. A bedtime routine is discipline. It doesn’t just mean punishment.

I mentioned Sarah OS earlier and I like some of what she says, others aren't for my family.
I think ultimately your parenting "style" has to work not just for you and your child but also society, I know that sounds quite intense but let's face it, nobody wants a kids being mini bellends running around restaurants etc, do they?
That said, I've had 1 complaint in a slightly upmarket family pub over my autistic DS. He wasn't running around or yelling etc, he was sat on his tablet with headphones, he was rocking to himself and saying American phrases, not quietly but not loudly either. Other kids were running around but this woman made a point of saying my DS was distracting her and she couldn't hear her friends. I know MN love to agree with the opposite person and say "wonder how she'd explain your DS behaviour" but hand on heart, he was sat down, he rocks a bit but we were in the corner table, he was watching YouTube with ear phones and he was occasionally saying things like, "I'm cool a bro" but he wasn't very verbal at this point. I think she presumed we were just spoiling him with the ipad and his sensory toys around him, (nothing noisy or light up!) And she just thought we were awful parents, not focusing soley on our DS, trying to engage him in conversation and asking his opinion on the vegan cassoulet as opposed to giving him nuggets and chips with ketchup and one of his 5 a day 😁
I do think all kids need to learn acceptable standards of behaviour but also, adults can do with learning kids sometimes are gonna kid x

One of the biggest revelations to me was the parenting style I was subjected to as a child was so strict that it left me wanting to be too much the other way. And unfortunately my DS was one of those kids who thrived on routine, and needs structure. Otherwise he gets unsettled and anxious and stressed.

I found when DS was your son's age, he was a dream. Then the threes came along and he was very impulsive. And I actually floundered a lot at this stage until I spoke to a colleague who's kids were reared and turned out wonderful. Her parenting style was gentle but not permissive and I still bounce things off her.

When DS was 2/3 he hated the buggy and screamed blue murder but would leg it if he held hands. So he got the choice of reins or buggy, and he knew that it was one or the other, and he was happy having the choice. Similarly it was Jacket A or Jacket B and setting out the day I would explain where we had to go, what we had to get in each shop and what treat we would have once we'd done our shopping. No shopping, no treat. To this day he likes to have a plan and likes to know within that plan what's ok and what isn't.

In your case I'd have explained that the dinosaur belongs to the store staff, and that we need to put it back, but that we should go find puddles to jump in before they go away.

I don't sweat the small stuff but non negotiable rules are:
Anything to do with Safety, anything to do with Health.

So, I'm ok with him eating away from the dinner table when it's just us but if he's pissing about and not eating his dinner, back to the table he comes. In public, in other people's houses or when we have guests I expect good manners, good behaviour and good table etiquette.

@MiddleParking see what you mean. I think from my perspective I perhaps offer discipline without being conscious of it. I grew up with one of those mothers who slapped you and banished you to your bed hungry over any minor transgression , also the kids in my family were loud and aggressive. Our communication is very gentle, it feels like I’m just reminding him to do things occasionally, I don’t think I ever ‘tell him off’ though. I tend to foreshadow instead like ‘we need to be super quiet in here’ or ‘you mustn’t stare at the poorly people’ before we walk into the hospital waiting room. he’s bloody good at following instructions like this but generally dances to his own tune at home and probably gets away with things other kids wouldn’t.

I think the reason I’m reading this thread with an eyebrow raised (if indeed I could raise an eyebrow) is that forcing a child into a buggy or car seat is not (to me) discipline or a boundary. It’s pissing them off, but is a two year old really going to sit and muse over the error of his ways in not picking up a toy?

To be clear, I’m not saying you should never do it. Obviously there might be times you have to for safety. But it isn’t enforcing a boundary. I can understand the OPs viewpoint on this. I’ve had to become a fair bit more creative on getting DS to come away from things he’s enjoying since having DD, as often I can’t physically remove him if I need to. Forcing a screaming child into a pushchair or a car seat isn’t teaching them anything meaningful - fine if you have to, but I am not sure why were pretending if you don’t do that your children are doomed for all eternity.

@Lwrenagain I really like Sarah O-S’s focus on neuroscience and I think what she says about the fourth trimester should be recommended reading for all new parents. BUT I don’t like the way she has turned treating kids with basic respect into her own personal brand as though she invented it - and I really resent the way she claimed in the introduction to Toddlercalm that she disliked other parenting experts for writing loads of parenting books whereas her idea was so simple that Toddlercalm was the only parenting book you’d ever need to read, and as tempting as it would be to write lots of different books and watch the royalties stack up, she’d be doing you a disservice if she didn’t explain it all thoroughly enough in that one book. She then went on to write The Gentle Sleep Book, The Gentle Potty-Training Book, The Gentle Weaning Book, The Gentle Siblings Book, The Gentle Starting School Book… She’s recently brought out a new edition of one of them and has urged her fans on no account to buy second-hand versions of the old one and, in fact, if they possess a copy of the old one they MUST buy the new one because it’s so much better 🤨

I do think all kids need to learn acceptable standards of behaviour but also, adults can do with learning kids sometimes are gonna kid x

I love that!

@Summermeadowflowers Forcing a screaming child into a pushchair or a car seat isn’t teaching them anything meaningful - fine if you have to, but I am not sure why were pretending if you don’t do that your children are doomed for all eternity.

OMG this! A thousand times this!! This idea that if you don’t MAKE them do something they don’t want to they will NEVER EVER do anything they don’t want to is so pervasive and just makes no sense at all.

I agree with all your posts on here @ZebraDanios

I have never found Sarah OS helpful but perhaps controversially I don’t know if I’ve ever read anything that has worked, or at least not consistently, when it comes to toddler behaviour! We like to smugly say ‘well the babies haven’t read the books’ when it comes to routine driven baby books but don’t apply this to toddlers. They are difficult - even easy ones. Problem is, it’s easy to come on MN with a problem like ‘help, my toddler keeps escaping from his car seat’ and you get thundered at ‘PARENT HIM! It’s a NON NEGOTIABLE BOUNDARY.’ And it’s easy to assume everyone else just tells their toddlers what to do and they do it … and they don’t! That’s definitely got me into confrontational situations with DS before, the situation has escalated and we’ve both become angry and upset.

For instance, the ‘two choices’ has never worked here. It is a great suggestion but DS either ignores you or says no to both - ‘red jumper or green coat?’ ‘NO wed jumper! NO COAT!’ OK then!

I have to constantly remind myself he’s two. If I absolutely have to enforce him sitting in a car seat then yes I do because safety and the law but it isn’t a method of discipline. Ideally you do want mutual respect between the two of you and I understand the OPs hesitation as no matter how necessary, it is unpleasant to physically force someone into doing something and for most of us goes against our instincts.

That's a bit obtuse, I don't think that anyone forcing a screaming frustrated child into a buggy thinks that the child is really learning any grand lesson from it, other than that adults are bigger and stronger and can physically overpower you, which is true, whether or not you think that is a useful thing for toddlers to learn.

I think this fits perfectly with what @BertieBotts was saying above.

I remember reading earlier on in my parenting journey that part of the reason why toddlers can be so difficult is that they have so little control over their lives and this naturally makes them frustrated (and I intuitively felt like this made perfect sense). As someone who is already inclined towards the gentle-parenting end of the spectrum, I might read that and think “ooh I need to give my kid more control!”, which (depending on my level of permissiveness) could well be a mistake - maybe I’m already giving them enough control and reading this now convinces me to give them too much.

If you think about it, this is quite likely, because no-one who is inclined towards an authoritarian approach is likely to read advice about gentle parenting anyway, much less entirely revise their approach to parenting based on it - whereas someone already inclined towards permissiveness may read it and conclude to take their permissiveness a little further.

I’ve always felt like it’s maybe not a bad thing to give small children control over things that don’t really matter too much (like their clothes, practicality permitting) in the hope that they will then give less resistance when you really do need them to go along with you (health and safety stuff). Interestingly, the exact opposite logic is often used as an argument for school uniform - if you give them something inconsequent to rebel against they’re more likely to comply with rules that actually matter 🤷‍♀️