Parents who let your toddlers run feral, how are your kids now?

[Fruitcakesanddogs]

I have a 23 month old. I am very relaxed with him. He’s messy, loud and basically a complete hurricane. I try to just let him do his thing, unless of course he’s going to harm someone else or is really annoying someone.

I know some people don’t like this kind of parenting. If that’s you then fair enough. However I am interested in hearing from parents who did take a more relaxed approach with their toddler. How did it turn out for you?

I admire the posters saying ‘we did it and are now undoing it’ acknowledging that it didn’t work for them.

OP mine are quite ‘free range’ where appropriate. At the park they can play how they like if it’s not causing strife to others.

However, in a shop they are in a buggy/trolley to make my life easier and because for me it’s more appropriate at that age. That way I’m not reasoning with someone to put something back they shouldn’t have. I’m chatting to them, asking them what they can see, interacting with them etc. Once they got old enough to behave reliably they could walk because if they picked something up I can breezily say ‘put that back, we’re here for teabags’ or whatever.

I know two children being gentle parented. They are taught to have their own boundaries, that they matter and their views, ideas and dreams are important. They are shown that they can contribute to dialogue and express themselves freely and honestly without any obligation.
They are both absolute dicks.

You mention it being 'his day out too' OP and wanting him to enjoy it. I think we maybe have all absorbed a bit of an insta-perfect rosy view of days out and feel like they're a failure if anyone gets upset or anything goes wrong. But for a tiny toddler, everything is a learning experience and learning does involve some degree of frustration, failure and perseverance. So he needs to learn that a shop isn't the same as playgroup - we don't pick up the toys in the shop, we need to put it back now. It might be really infuriating and confusing to him the first few times but then he'll get it and he'll understand. You might have had to carry a tantrumming child out and have to calm them down and it's not fun but they end up learning that different environments have different social expectations and that's a really valuable experience.

We're (rightly) horrified at physical chastisement of children and we are keen for them to develop bodily autonomy, but that doesn't mean we won't ever 'restrain' them - eg some kids hate car seats and seatbelts but they're non-negotiable. They want to play on their balance bike but not wear a helmet - tough luck, you don't get on it without the helmet. You don't want to wear a sunhat, you stay in the shade. Sometimes you have to take yucky medicine or have an injection. Kids don't always have free choice over what happens to them and while I get the theory of 'we rarely say no so when we do he listens because he knows it's important' I have seen that work the other way - they rarely hear no so they ignore it when they hear it because they haven't learned how to respond to it and they don't care about it.

I had a long career teaching secondary and when I left recently, I had been noticing a massive increase in children who just had no concept that they might have to do some they didn't feel like doing like write an essay. Just blank confusion at the idea that the world doesn't revolve around them and what they want. I think that's a lesson that gets harder and more painful for them to learn the longer you leave it.

Giving a child lots of agency and freedom to make choices is not the same as letting them run riot. I have a child that’s never been punished, never been disciplined in any notable way, yet remains the most gentle and intuitive and careful 6 yr old boy you’d ever be likely to meet. He cares deeply about other people’s feelings and is the kind of child to run over to someone who’s upset and hold their hand, he’s completely trustworthy with his baby niece to the extent that he will watch her and cradle her while mum uses the loo or makes a brew, on a walk, should a dog approach he positions himself between the baby and animal despite being terrified of dogs himself. He is in many senses ‘feral’ he’s naturally inclined to a scruffy appearance and will piss about till the wee hours in his room with his toys rather than go to sleep, he also is a miniature Gordon Ramsey when it comes to food. Ultimately though, he’s an absolute sweetheart and I’ve no doubt will make an excellent father and husband.

One of my DC is neurodiverse, was a whirlwind at 2/3, constantly running around and couldn’t sit still.

But even with this I was firm and gave boundaries. They understand “No!” And “Ahah” etc at 1-2yrs. To say otherwise is to underestimate their ability.

My attitude was to enforce discipline and respect early, because otherwise you will end up with a disobedient and disrespectful child/teen that is a nightmare to manage as they get older/bigger, for you and school.

My aunt did this with her three children - they were horrible teens and now they're deeply unpleasant adults who bully her and couldn't care less about anyone else. They never get in touch with my aunt unless they want something.

Agree with all this. A lot of parenting advice on MN seems focused on boundaries but a boundary can be anything from a life-or-death thing like not running across roads to something a parent almost randomly decides they don’t want to happen. Some things are non-negotiable, it goes without saying, but if a child asks if they can have a drink in the pink cup rather than the blue cup, what do you gain by insisting that they HAVE to have it in the blue cup? If I can’t explain why they should/shouldn’t do something (and they’re not always going to understand the explanation, but at least they can see I’m not just making rules up) then I’m not going to enforce it - I got a lot of “because I said so” as a child, and it just made me resentful about having to obey rules I couldn’t see the point of.

Honestly?
the kids I know who were left to ‘run wild’ ended up lonely because no one wants a kid like that round for play dates or sleepovers
I mean why would a parent knowingly say yes to little Jonny or Jane coming over when you know little Jonny will draw on the walls or find your expensive make up and use it on your bed ( both happened once here).
one child assaulted my then baby son once - mother was just oblivious to her ‘angel’/ brat - completely uninterested
people have expectations in their own home - eg my house is a shoes off house absolutely everyone including my severely autistic nephew respects this, except one entitled child who made a huge fuss because he ‘didn’t want to’ - then huge sulk when I insisted

remember people talk and ‘that’ child and ‘those parents’ are avoided - seen it happen many times

and don’t get me started on children in restaurants/ shops / dentist etc who just cannot / won’t sit still and have to run around and touch things they have no business touching getting in everyone’s way and ruining everyone else’s day.
( dental practices are choc full of sharp and dangerous items that we have out because WE ARE WORKING we cannot and shouldn’t be expected to put things away because parents cannot or will not control their kids)

-drives me crazy

My perception of relaxed parenting is the the woman and her husband in the nice restaurant in Leeds last Saturday afternoon that let her feral toddler and his sibling lie on the restaurant floor and throw toy cars along the floor between people's seats ramming them into the chairs? Where the waitresses with plates of hot food had to step over them?

The mother that apologised when she left and said "so sorry for any inconvenience, it's really hard entertaining a toddler when you want to enjoy a nice meal with friends"

In other words, fuck you and your nice meal with your friends.

If I had had a relaxed parenting style with my DS, who was a nightmare toddler, he would have ended up in borstal.

With kindness, OP, you are in the wonderful baby months. Come back in 2 years when you have a threenager and tell us how it's going.

I am a big believer in boundaries - obviously for safety reasons and to know what is acceptable and not but also when there are time constraints. DC need to know that the world doesn't revolve around them, they are part of society and ideally will become a positive member of society one day.

Your current method will eventually come to an end as you will become more time constrained - going back to work , DC going to nursery and needing to be there at a certain time, having another child, having to get back to the car park etc. At some point your DC will need to know that he has to put that toy down in the shop as you are leaving now. There will be tantrums and you will still need to leave.

@Timeturnerplease makes brilliant points - I am in awe of most Early years / KS1 teachers. I wish I had more of their skill set

Agree totally with bodily autonomy being different for children. There seems to be some move towards “well you wouldn’t do that to an adult so why would you do that for a child?” but that’s totally mad. Children can’t have full bodily autonomy - otherwise they would probably never clean teeth, have nappies changed, take nasty medicine, sit in a car seat. They’d run out onto the road, climb unsafe things, walk in front of swings. Early childhood years are full of times we have to exert physical control for their safety, even if they don’t like it.
I remember a friend of mine saying “why does my child hit, we NEVER hit at home, where is she getting this from?” and we all decided that basically lots (most?) children are born pretty feral and that actually the hitting and snatching and desire to never do anything they didn’t want to was the normal state and it was our job to civilise these little beasts. Some less than others of course (my two boys alone are very different - if they saw someone fall my oldest would probably say “I’m sure he’ll be fine, so 🤷‍♀️ “ whereas my youngest would run over and check they were ok).
If we try and make childhood too easy and avoid all the difficult bits, we’re just steamrolling the road, when we should be teaching them how to deal with the bumps.

Mine are free range without being feral DS1 knows to ask before he does something like climb up a tree etc. He does have a friend who was/is feral and now at 5 it's caused a whole heap of issues with school not following instructions etc.

It's fine to let them play etc but they do need boundaries and to understand when asked to do something (like put something back) then they need to follow that. DS2 (20 months) also doesn't like a buggy but is fine after a few minutes. I've also had to tuck him under my arm and walk with him screaming because some things (like running the opposite direction at a airport gate when boarding) are just not wise and if he refuses to come then yep he gets picked up regardless.

parenting without boundaries, aka lazy parenting, isn't just neglectful, it's very damaging to relationships. These are the kids who wont be invited to parties or included with meet ups, because no one wants their own child hurt by an unholy terror. Once the kids become teens, the parent(s) will really struggle and very likely the parent / child relationship will breakdown. I've seen it over and over again it's sadly predictable and causes so much unnecessary suffering for both parties.
There is an element of truth in the old adage of 'spare the rod and spoil the child'.

You allow your child to pickup things in shops? That reminds me of a toddler I saw running around a camping and outdoor shop i worked in with a mallet. Mum did nothing so I intervened. Another kid (different occasion) pulled the sleeping bags from the displays and knocked down a stack of shoes. Is your kid going to be that kid? (And I haven’t worked at the shop for a decade, and I still remember these two destructive, feral, kids).

Also, your two year old is already limiting your life. What’s it going to be like in the future?

I agree, your son is/ will be missing out on so much unfortunately.
Heaven help you when he starts being a defiant four year old and you discover that not only can you not take him anywhere but that he has no friends because he always wants his own way.
i could take my DCs anywhere when they were tiny, my DGSs are the same now and they’re a delight to be around.

My friend parented like this. She has a lovely time with the 3 year old as he never has a tantrum...as he is never told no. There's no time limit on days out as she just waits for him to be ready to go home, even if it means she doesn't eat, drink or go to the toilet all day. Every day is spent doing the things that he wants, no chores or anything that is boring for him so of course he is always happy and never has tantrums. But real life isn't like this, children have to learn that they don't get what they want all the time otherwise they will get a big shock at school. Her oldest hasn't coped well with school after having the same experience as a toddler, she doesn't listen to other people, she doesn't have many friends and friend isn't bothered as she didn't have many friends either as a child. The oldest is also behind at school, but friend is so obsessed with them having a nice time, that she doesn't seem motivated to help. Friend doesn't like school and this is projected on the kids. I stopped having playdates as her kids were feral and sent my kids feral for days afterwards. I also found that she expected me to revolve everything around her kids, even if it wasn't convienient for everyone as they were the centre of the universe for her and she didn't understand that everyone is equally important. Even I wasn't able to do something, she would keep asking because her kids wanted to, and she was desperate to facilitate their wants.

If we try and make childhood too easy and avoid all the difficult bits, we’re just steamrolling the road, when we should be teaching them how to deal with the bumps.

I agree with this up to a point but I think there’s a lot to be said for being aware of what are fair expectations to have of a child in terms of their brain development. MN loves saying “your child will have to do xyz at school so they’d better get used to it now” about two and three year olds - but their brains will develop so much in that time; expecting them to do something they’re not neurologically ready for is just setting them up to fail.

That doesn’t mean you never expose your child to anything they’re going to find difficult, or that you don’t help them through it when they do - but maybe you recognise that a two-year-old sitting perfectly still for hours in a restaurant, for example, is just not a reasonable expectation, and the fact that they will have to be able to do it eventually doesn’t mean you should force them to do it now.

You seem to think that as your child gets better and communicating, it will all magically get easier. It won't, he'll just be able to say no inn more ways and argue back more, as you haven't put the groundwork in.

Exactly. The groundwork you put in at this age is your toolkit for managing the much more difficult stage that is to come. At this point you have nothing to reach for when the 'NO' to everything stage hits.
Your child understands much more of what you say than you think.

You've been given lots of really good advice from those who take the middle ground. I recognise a lot of those strategies...the closed choices, the 'now and next' etc. One of the things our kids grew up with from very tiny was the 'last minute' warning when they were doing something they enjoyed, but we needed to move on shortly (usually playing in the Early Learning Centre while shopping!) So they were prepared to leave but could finish what they were doing.

Totally agree @ZebraDanios - it’s about introducing age appropriate boundaries. So a 1 year old hears “we have to clean teeth so they stay healthy” or “we have to take this medicine, yes it tastes horrid but without it you won’t get better”
Then a 2 year old starts hearing “Bob is playing with that toy, so wait until he’s finished, here’s something else” or “we have to leave now so I’ll push you 10 more times on the swing and then we’re going” and just building up so that the boundaries meet the child’s age.
I do think if you have one child and you don’t work and have family support then childhood can be a big time of just relaxing fun, which is lovely, but if you don’t introduce some things the child doesn’t really want to do, then when do you do that?

Come on, gentle parenting doesn’t mean not saying no and not having boundaries. Yes it doesn’t involve shouting, timeouts or naughty step, but it can totally include taking away the toy/taking child out of the setting and other methods

My DS was a whirlwind of a toddler. I only took him to places and activities that suited his personality - lots of parks and soft play. Places he could burn off his energy. As he got older I channelled his energy into lots of sporting activities.

Things like eating out we did in baby steps. Trips to an ice cream shop or out for a quick piece of toast or cake. We gradually built up to longer meals and nicer spaces. It would have been impossible to distract him at a table for a long meal, but I wouldn't have inflicted his antics on other paying customers either.

@Ozgirl75 I do think if you have one child and you don’t work and have family support then childhood can be a big time of just relaxing fun, which is lovely, but if you don’t introduce some things the child doesn’t really want to do, then when do you do that?

This is one of several reasons I don’t have a lot of time for Sarah Ockwell-Smith. She gives a bunch of advice on dealing with children who have a hard time settling into nursery, then says “if they’re really struggling, just don’t send them”. Not much help for those of us who have to work and don’t have willing and able grandparents down the road, is it?!

About the toy in the shop; you explain that it's a shop, they toys aren't there to be played with. You're going to end up quite soon with a two year old who thinks that everything is an optional activity. Then you'll find your life getting very difficult and upsetting indeed. If you do the work now with letting him know that sometimes you need to do things you don't want to do, it'll be easier in the long run.

@ZebraDanios exactly! I had no family support when mine were small as we lived overseas so they had to come to every bloody thing with me (before the days of DH being able to work from home!). At the time I thought it was kind of a pain but with hindsight it’s probably good as it did force me to actively parent as I didn’t want unpleasant kids.