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Do we actually know who bombed the hospital in Gaza yet?

1000 replies

Ididivfama · 18/10/2023 13:10

I keep seeing mixed reports. It’s really unsettling not to know.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
76
DdraigGoch · 19/10/2023 19:28

Gruntsandgroans · 19/10/2023 17:33

Just because you say you 'feel' a certain way it doesn't give you free reign to massacre 1000s of civilians. Feelings and reality are not the same thing. I have answered your end question so many times I am bored of it at this stage and cannot be arsed typing it out.

Personally I haven't seen anyone standing up for Hamas. 70% of the people Israel have massacred are women and children. How many of those do you think are Hamas? How many of the starving people do you think are Hamas? How many of the people 1000s injured do you think are Hamas? The global response is to the massacre of Palestinian people. I can't count the times I have said that I don't think what Hamas did was right, I am sick to death of having to preface everything with that or else getting called 'pro Hamas' or a sympathiser or whatever, that too is boring and isn't the gotcha people seem to think it is.

Edited

Did you see some of the posters on this thread last night? Some of them were really going out of their way to deny that Hamas (or affiliated groups) was responsible for the explosion at the hospital, in spite of the evidence available. Over the last couple of weeks we have seen posters making excuses for Hamas, writing as if they are a group of freedom fighters "resisting". There was even dancing on Edgware Road in celebration of the pogrom, well before the IDF had regrouped and started retaliating.

These people are out there and they have the same number of votes as you or I. One man (who regarded Hamas as "friends") came dangerously close to becoming prime minister.

DdraigGoch · 19/10/2023 19:36

immigrant002 · 19/10/2023 17:54

This must be the most far fetched thing i have read ! Jihadis go to live in gaza Confused

Isn't that basically what Yasser Arafat did?

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 19:36

I've got to admit, when I watched the events unfolding last week, I thought, "hang on, this isn't right" but now I know how they did it, it makes sense.

Invading on the morning of a holy day whilst most of the senior staff were at home with family and the inexperienced were manning the front lines was tactically a great move, one that won't be repeated though.

SinnerBoy · 19/10/2023 19:37

*FreeCoathangers^ · Today 14:31

Great, so now we've changed the meaning of genocide and now we can freely use it at Israel like a bunch of raving lunatics.

It's you who wants to change the definition of it. Over the past weeks, there have been newspaper articles calling it genocide, explaining why and linking to the GC Articles, which define war crimes.

If they'd been making it up, they'd have been flayed by now. The British press also has a statutory duty not to print lies and they can be sanctioned for doing so, with being made to print prominent corrections.

Have you seen any?

DoDoDoD · 19/10/2023 19:38

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 19:19

No, I was talking about Spectator Index.

I watched this earlier this afternoon, it's actually pretty sickening now this looks like it's been confirmed:

s

FF to 0.36 and the BBC report John Donnison, he's almost gleeful - but that may just be my bias showing through.

What sort of authority is Rod Liddle the casual racist?
What actual investigation has he done compared to Channel 4 and other media outlets?

EasterIssland · 19/10/2023 19:38

DdraigGoch · 19/10/2023 19:28

Did you see some of the posters on this thread last night? Some of them were really going out of their way to deny that Hamas (or affiliated groups) was responsible for the explosion at the hospital, in spite of the evidence available. Over the last couple of weeks we have seen posters making excuses for Hamas, writing as if they are a group of freedom fighters "resisting". There was even dancing on Edgware Road in celebration of the pogrom, well before the IDF had regrouped and started retaliating.

These people are out there and they have the same number of votes as you or I. One man (who regarded Hamas as "friends") came dangerously close to becoming prime minister.

Sorry there is still no real conclusion about what happened as there are news also based on research that it was Israel.
somw of the news are basing their conclusions on some idf research which of course is not going to acknowledge it. Same way I’d not expect hamas to acknowledge it. Israel did several mistakes post the strike when accusing hamas (posting videos from 2022, posting fake audio , posting videos from one hour before the blast) so people have no confidence on their research

fully independent research needs to be done.

DdraigGoch · 19/10/2023 19:42

WanderingWitches · 19/10/2023 18:06

I thought this was quite interesting after what it was like last night on here.
People so quick to believe a terrorist group.

The figure of 500 was discredited as soon as the photos showing the size of the crater were revealed. People would have had to be standing like sardines to have those sorts of casualties. If there really had been a large explosion there would have been no way that Hamas (or any NGOs) would have been able to make sense of the body parts that quickly in order to get a count. They're still finding bodies from the 7th, even a fortnight later.

Incredible how determined some people were to believe Hamas, they've long been partial to adding an extra nought or two to casualty figures. A lie can travel around the world and back again while the truth is lacing up its boots.

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 19:47

DoDoDoD · 19/10/2023 19:38

What sort of authority is Rod Liddle the casual racist?
What actual investigation has he done compared to Channel 4 and other media outlets?

Editor of the BBC Today Program?

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 19:48

SinnerBoy · 19/10/2023 19:37

*FreeCoathangers^ · Today 14:31

Great, so now we've changed the meaning of genocide and now we can freely use it at Israel like a bunch of raving lunatics.

It's you who wants to change the definition of it. Over the past weeks, there have been newspaper articles calling it genocide, explaining why and linking to the GC Articles, which define war crimes.

If they'd been making it up, they'd have been flayed by now. The British press also has a statutory duty not to print lies and they can be sanctioned for doing so, with being made to print prominent corrections.

Have you seen any?

This is from a poster on page 28:

This is where I think the current definition of genocide might need clarifying. In its application there seems to be an implied provision that the 'intent to destroy ' is a realisable ambition. But it's not explicit, and it needs to be.

Otherwise most acts of mass terrorism would fall under the definition, heck even a single murder could constitute a genocide based on intention.

It being realisable means that their intention has some prospects of success. So whilst someone who has stated that want to kill Muslims one person at a time, who commits a murder, might show genocidal intent, it's not genocide.

So the acts of a nation are more likely to constitute genocide either because of the level of the acts, or the potential level of the acts.

Hamas is no real threat to Israel. They can never thankfully succeed at their aims of wiping out Israel, and their terrorist acts are committed against a regime whose power dwarfs theirs. Again, more homicidal intent, or hell-bent on homicide, however your want to put it, but it's much more debatable whether it's actual genocide.

The sheer power of Israel coupled with a much higher death rate, and a siege lasting more than a decade, together with comments made by the government about wanting to destroy gaza, reduce it to tents, give the citizens the choice of leaving, dying or subjugation etc, much more point to it fulfilling the definition of genocide as it's intended to be read (it with realisable intent, not just intent).

immigrant002 · 19/10/2023 19:52

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 19/10/2023 18:26

@immigrant002

Let’s remind ourselves why Shamima Begum travelled to join Islamic State. That’s right. She was so indoctrinated that she thought it was her holy purpose to travel to a war zone and marry a jihadi fighter.

Some communities teach that this is the highest form of service to God. So yes, they arrive and marry and have kids. Why do you think that such a high proportion of the Palestinian population are children?

Oh gosh i wonder if its because they do not grow old ? I wonder if its because of the blockade and poverty levels ??
Maybe is because preventative medical
Care is non existant and they cant leave to go get medical
Care else where?
Maybe is because they usually marry young and have more children

But yes you can continue with your theory is because of jihadist moving there Confused

Gruntsandgroans · 19/10/2023 20:00

DdraigGoch · 19/10/2023 19:18

Equally Nakba isn't a free pass for Palestinians either. Many Palestinians are Israeli citizens, they have moved on and integrated into the new state. Much as Jewish people have been doing for millennia. The actors who continue to stir old grievances have created the present conditions where Gaza is blockaded because Israel doesn't want any way in for weapons.

As I said earlier, if a different administration had been elected in 2005 - one which didn't spend its time and resources lobbing rockets over the fence - Gaza would be in a very different place. It's in a great spot on the Mediterranean and there were once plans to build a casino. It could have ended up as a wealthy tax haven. But no, Hamas are in charge and just fire rockets in pursuit of a goal they will never achieve.

I never said it was. I commenting on the 'Why are these so many Jews in Israel.' My answer was Nakba. I don't think anything excuses genocide. I don't think anything excuses the mass killing of 1000s of Palestinians or 1000s of Israelis.

WanderingWitches · 19/10/2023 20:20

immigrant002 · 19/10/2023 19:52

Oh gosh i wonder if its because they do not grow old ? I wonder if its because of the blockade and poverty levels ??
Maybe is because preventative medical
Care is non existant and they cant leave to go get medical
Care else where?
Maybe is because they usually marry young and have more children

But yes you can continue with your theory is because of jihadist moving there Confused

Life expectancy in Palestine is 74.28
Higher than India, St Lucia, Bulgaria, Jamaica, The Philippines and many more

www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/

MiniTheMinx · 19/10/2023 20:29

crimsonfleet No I am not saying Israel is at fault for the Hamas attack. Only Hamas are responsible for what Hamas does. However several Israeli papers have reported that Netanyahu has used Hamas to undermine Abbas because ultimately this forestalls any move towards a permanent Palestinian state. I am also saying that it is inconceivable to me that a paranoid state with the best security and surveillance systems knew nothing about what Hamas was planning.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces

immigrant002 · 19/10/2023 20:32

www.instagram.com/reel/CylJT3arL23/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

In the interview they are saying they received 3 warnings that they were going to bomb and to evacuate

And then there was a bomb but it was not them

DownNative · 19/10/2023 20:36

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 19:36

I've got to admit, when I watched the events unfolding last week, I thought, "hang on, this isn't right" but now I know how they did it, it makes sense.

Invading on the morning of a holy day whilst most of the senior staff were at home with family and the inexperienced were manning the front lines was tactically a great move, one that won't be repeated though.

There's a lot more information available on how Hamas was able to do what they did on 7th October 2023 than I've posted

One of the things is that it turns out Hamas members had maps of locations to attack which suggests an inside mole or foreign State acquired intel.

But one of the first things they did was to knock out the communications which also massively slowed down the Israeli Defence Force response. They had to start in urban areas before moving out towards the kibbutz which was very slow due to engaging Hamas members.

It certainly wasn't anything close to "Israel Defense Force just let Hamas murder Israelis for 6 hours!" or anything like that.

Hamas was very well armed and had very good quality intel.

Quite a few people here should learn what Hanlon's Razor is. 🤷‍♂️

SinnerBoy · 19/10/2023 20:41

I certainly don't think that Israel allowed the attack to happen and certainly not to say it gave them casus belli. They certainly are using it to justify taking another slice of Palestinian land, as Netanyahu has said.

Another factor I've read is that large numbers of their best troops were in the West Bank, helping the illegal settlers and weren't in place to react quickly.

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 20:42

DownNative · 19/10/2023 20:36

There's a lot more information available on how Hamas was able to do what they did on 7th October 2023 than I've posted

One of the things is that it turns out Hamas members had maps of locations to attack which suggests an inside mole or foreign State acquired intel.

But one of the first things they did was to knock out the communications which also massively slowed down the Israeli Defence Force response. They had to start in urban areas before moving out towards the kibbutz which was very slow due to engaging Hamas members.

It certainly wasn't anything close to "Israel Defense Force just let Hamas murder Israelis for 6 hours!" or anything like that.

Hamas was very well armed and had very good quality intel.

Quite a few people here should learn what Hanlon's Razor is. 🤷‍♂️

I know, I watched the Hamas videos of taking out comms towers with drones equipped with grenades, it was jaw dropping.

I think I've mentioned it before on here but the fact they had motorcycle teams, dressed as IDF who were literally waved into Compounds and Bases was just crazy.

When it eventually came through to the IDF command centre there was so many "contacts" it seemed as though an army of 10,000 was attacking, not a couple of thousand.

Israel were actually humiliated, in my opinion, I don't think that will happen ever again.

DownNative · 19/10/2023 20:43

MiniTheMinx · 19/10/2023 20:29

crimsonfleet No I am not saying Israel is at fault for the Hamas attack. Only Hamas are responsible for what Hamas does. However several Israeli papers have reported that Netanyahu has used Hamas to undermine Abbas because ultimately this forestalls any move towards a permanent Palestinian state. I am also saying that it is inconceivable to me that a paranoid state with the best security and surveillance systems knew nothing about what Hamas was planning.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

No, it is not "inconceivable to me that a paranoid state with the best security and surveillance systems knew nothing about what Hamas was planning"!

That just shows you don't really understand the world of intelligence and security. It's really like looking for the needle in a stack of needles to try to find the one needle that will hurt you. In other words, trying to figure out which threat is immediate which are not. That's actually very difficult.

Absolutely no State is able to stop every single terrorist attack. There will always be ones that get through eventually.

Having too much intelligence information AND security measures can actually be counterproductive.

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 20:43

SinnerBoy · 19/10/2023 20:41

I certainly don't think that Israel allowed the attack to happen and certainly not to say it gave them casus belli. They certainly are using it to justify taking another slice of Palestinian land, as Netanyahu has said.

Another factor I've read is that large numbers of their best troops were in the West Bank, helping the illegal settlers and weren't in place to react quickly.

It was a major religious holiday, it was a skeleton staff and a very inexperienced skeleton staff at that, would be interested in your link though.

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 20:45

Those people that accept that Israel were utterly humiliated, militarily, during the Hamas invasion will also accept that Israel would never have let hat humiliation happen on purpose.

Nice conspiracy theory though.

DownNative · 19/10/2023 20:47

SinnerBoy · 19/10/2023 20:41

I certainly don't think that Israel allowed the attack to happen and certainly not to say it gave them casus belli. They certainly are using it to justify taking another slice of Palestinian land, as Netanyahu has said.

Another factor I've read is that large numbers of their best troops were in the West Bank, helping the illegal settlers and weren't in place to react quickly.

Yes, having a significant proportion of the Israeli Defence Force in the West Bank may well be a factor.

It was a failure across different areas which will mean Israel will have to rethink their approach to national security. Similar to the U.S and UK in their respective battles against terrorism, I don't think Israel will make the same security mistakes again.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 19/10/2023 20:57

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 20:43

It was a major religious holiday, it was a skeleton staff and a very inexperienced skeleton staff at that, would be interested in your link though.

... true, and true!

Also: it arguably REALLY did NOT help that a lot of the IDF had, just recently, been diverted to such "fruitful" tasks as "go help extremist settlers terrorise the people of Huwwara village, Nablus region", though!

There are very good reasons why - after just how politically torn and divided Israelis were, just before this happened! - a good chunk of Israelis are blaming Bibi, personally, for the Hamas atrocity!

And they are right, too!

When I say "I expect my [British] government to do better than hug the guy who could stop bombs being dropped upon civilians", I MEAN IT!

And I stand in full solidarity with Israelis who are shouting "but Bibi and his cronies could have averted this! at least the extent of it! - had he not opted to help his ultra-far-right coalistion partners out a bit by sending half the IDF to the West Bank protect extremists as they terrorised villagers!"

I stand with those Israelis - even the ones who lash out in pain and make horrible demands involving "Gaza" and "parking lots" --- I will just need them to come back around eventually!

Also, for anyone NOT currently undergoing personal trauma to the extent that I would not expect it:

CEASEFIRE NOW!!!

DownNative · 19/10/2023 21:05

FreeCoathangers · 19/10/2023 20:42

I know, I watched the Hamas videos of taking out comms towers with drones equipped with grenades, it was jaw dropping.

I think I've mentioned it before on here but the fact they had motorcycle teams, dressed as IDF who were literally waved into Compounds and Bases was just crazy.

When it eventually came through to the IDF command centre there was so many "contacts" it seemed as though an army of 10,000 was attacking, not a couple of thousand.

Israel were actually humiliated, in my opinion, I don't think that will happen ever again.

For sure, Israel will have learned very important lessons from this! Absolutely.

Some of Israel's Allies had also convinced them that Hamas was more interested in governing Gaza than attacking. Plainly wrong!

IIRC, the Gaza work permits to work in Israel was part of what helped Hamas gain intelligence on where to go. Every single Hamas fighter knew where to go and they had maps.

Reuters gives a decent overview:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/

This NY Times article has a lot of detail that answers a lot of people's questions:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/13/world/middleeast/hamas-israel-attack-gaza.html

A rocket is fired from Gaza toward Israel, in Gaza, October 7, 2023. REUTERS/Ibraheem Abu Mustafa/File Photo

How Hamas duped Israel as it planned devastating attack

While Israel was led to believe it was containing a war-weary Hamas by providing economic incentives to Gazan workers, the group's fighters were being trained and drilled, often in plain sight, a source close to Hamas said.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08

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