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Thread 31 Sunak: Court, Conflicts and Complications

1000 replies

DuncinToffee · 10/10/2023 08:40

Previous thread

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4898118-thread-30-sunak-no-trains-no-drains-no-point?page=40&reply=129806274

OP posts:
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67
DuncinToffee · 17/10/2023 09:04

Piggywaspushed · 17/10/2023 09:00

I have tried , and failed, to find a poll for Mid Beds.

Latest LD leaflets say Tories have slumped and LDs are narrowly in lead , but no sources , so I assume they made it up.

I think I read that Labour was leading over Lib Dem but a very close call with the Tories, I will see if I can find it again.

OP posts:
RafaistheKingofClay · 17/10/2023 09:20

The Lib Dem leaflet was made up.

Saw something this morning that suggested Tories had edged ahead. Mostly because the rest of the vote is split.

DuncinToffee · 17/10/2023 09:23

I might be mixing up Mid Beds with Tamsworth, they both are such close calls

This is from https://x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1713236243775914016?s=20 replying to a Alex Wickham tweet

very interesting...

I'm currently leaning towards a very narrow Labour Gain in Tamworth (no more than a 5% margin), and a Conservative Hold in Mid Beds due to the LAB/LD split opposition.

OP posts:
pointythings · 17/10/2023 10:00

I reckon Mid Beds is going to be an object lesson in the need for tactical voting. The Tories will hold it this time, but might well lose it at a GE. The lesson needs to be learned.

IClaudine · 17/10/2023 10:06

That is very interesting DuncinToffee. So his stance on Israel's response to the attack by Hamas hasn't affected him or Labour negatively, it seems. I thought it might.

RafaistheKingofClay · 17/10/2023 10:07

What is his current stance on that?

IClaudine · 17/10/2023 10:07

Agree pointythings. Tactical voting will be vital and both parties need to accept that reality.

Piggywaspushed · 17/10/2023 10:08

pointythings · 17/10/2023 10:00

I reckon Mid Beds is going to be an object lesson in the need for tactical voting. The Tories will hold it this time, but might well lose it at a GE. The lesson needs to be learned.

I'm not sure it's obvious tactical vote territory to be honest. It is quite confusing if you live there and are prepared to vote tactically. There isn't a clear second party who the few other voters could throw their weight behind.

The LDs just keep saying 'Labour can't win here' on the grounds that they believe ex Tory voters will lend their vote to them, and not Labour.

RafaistheKingofClay · 17/10/2023 10:11

Lab Tories were 50/50 there last week so tactical voting could work but it needs the Lib Dem voters to move their vote.

IClaudine · 17/10/2023 10:16

RafaistheKingofClay · 17/10/2023 10:07

What is his current stance on that?

During an LBC interview on Wednesday 11 October, Starmer was asked whether cutting off water and electricity supplies in the besieged region of Gaza was a proportionate response to the assault by Palestinian fighters in southern Israel.

He responded: "I think that Israel does have that right, it is an ongoing situation, obviously everything should be done within international law but I don't want to step away from the core principles that Israel has the right to defend herself."

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/keir-starmer-water-israel-gaza-palestine-b2429770.html

Has he clarified his stance any further since then? I am not sure he meant that he thinks it is OK for water and energy supplies to be cut off, but that is how many seem to have have interpreted it.

RafaistheKingofClay · 17/10/2023 11:09

I think he made a speech in parliament yesterday and got the sense from Twitter he’d changed stance slightly.

But I think my reading is about the same as yours. The ‘within international law’ changes things slightly because there are limited circumstances where cutting off electricity etc may be lawful. But cutting electricity, food, water, medicines to all citizens is unlikely to fall within the law. People can take what they like from it.

I’m not sure if I can ask this question so feel free to report but if the Israeli hostages are in Gaza isn’t the indiscriminate and untargetted bombing of Gaza a bit of a risky strategy?

IClaudine · 17/10/2023 11:18

This is what was reported yesterday:

“We are making valiant efforts to try to understand where the hostages are in Gaza, and we have such information,” said an Israeli military spokesperson, Daniel Hagari. “We will not carry out an attack that would endanger our people.”

jgw1 · 17/10/2023 12:17

DuncinToffee · 17/10/2023 08:54

Some results from Delta Poll

New Voting Intention
Labour lead has grown to twenty percentage points in the latest results from Deltapoll.
Con 27% (-1)
Lab 47% (+4)
Lib Dem 10% (-2)
Other 16% (-1)
Fieldwork: 13th-16th October 2023
Sample: 1,568 GB adults
(Changes from 5th - 6th October 2023)

Net approval for @Keir_Starmer has risen by eight percentage points and is now positive. Net approval for @RishiSunak remains at minus twenty-five percentage points.

https://x.com/DeltapollUK/status/1713917188363468986?s=20

That's because Starmer changed his hairstylist.

mibbelucieachwell · 17/10/2023 12:42

I have nothing wise or new to say, but I would like to say that I find the current Israel, Lebanon , Palestine situation and the reaction of western leaders to it extremely depressing. Why oh why are they all using the term 'unconditional support'? It honestly reminds me of a childish reaction with limited vocabulary and emotional awareness - 'I feel sad'or 'I feel happy'.

Where are the religious leaders calling for diplomacy and attempts to be peaceful?

It just seems to have been assumed that a horrific attack justifies revenge in the most extreme way possible.

Is KS still trying to distance himself from Jeremy Corbyn? Who, by the way, admitted some of his unmeasured references to Hamas as regrettable.

At the moment I am sick of the lot of them. (Usually I defend the Labour Party against the charge that all politicians are 'the same', ie universally corrupt, self-seeking or whatever. )

The most inspiring interviews I've heard were a Jewish Kibbutz resident who survived an attack who said he was more sad than angry and described how he campaigns for better treatment of Palestinians. He didn't feel that a large scale military response will facilitate peace, but will radicalise even more Palestinians and will cause more hatred towards Israelis.

And a negotiator who said we must never give up hope of finding a negotiated solution.

Remember when we were children and our parents used to say that two wrongs don't make a right, that if you retaliate you've sunk to the same level as your aggressor?

C'mon the West, shout for a ceasefire.

I realise my response is simplistic but the equally for -or -against either side talk is unhelpful.

jgw1 · 17/10/2023 12:46

It just seems to have been assumed that a horrific attack justifies revenge in the most extreme way possible.

I find the repeated use of the word retaliation by some to describe what Israel is/should do to be abhorrent. Why do they need to retaliate? Yes defend themselves, yes make a limited plan to try and release the hostages, but retaliate?

The one UK politican I have heard speak who I thought had the tone about right was Humza Yousef, although of course he has a particular personal interest in the situation and so perhaps understands it more than most.

mibbelucieachwell · 17/10/2023 12:55

Yes. Absolutely.

It struck me that Humza Yousaf was very measured, especially at such an incredibly worrying time for him and his family.

On a Scot net thread critical of the SNP which I've previously posted on criticising the SNP I expressed sympathy for him. The only reply was to state that his family are no more or less important than anyone else, which goes without saying but displays a total lack of compassion.

Can people not be horrified by the despicable actions of Hamas and advocate a proportionate response?

LittleBowSheep · 17/10/2023 13:12

I really don't see how Biden's visit to Israel is going to help matters. There's enough shit going on without the added security that his visit will require.

I also agree that I don't think Israel's actions can't be classed as 'defence'. What Hamas did and are doing is absolutely horrendous but I don't think that Israel's response is justified when so many innocent people are being killed and injured. I feel equally sad for the innocents on both sides and I am angry with the leaders on both sides too.

I don't like the stance that UK is taking in supporting just one side. Once again, they don't represent me when they say that. It doesn't appear to me as if anyone is trying to promote peace in any way at all.

IClaudine · 17/10/2023 13:33

LittleBowSheep · 17/10/2023 13:12

I really don't see how Biden's visit to Israel is going to help matters. There's enough shit going on without the added security that his visit will require.

I also agree that I don't think Israel's actions can't be classed as 'defence'. What Hamas did and are doing is absolutely horrendous but I don't think that Israel's response is justified when so many innocent people are being killed and injured. I feel equally sad for the innocents on both sides and I am angry with the leaders on both sides too.

I don't like the stance that UK is taking in supporting just one side. Once again, they don't represent me when they say that. It doesn't appear to me as if anyone is trying to promote peace in any way at all.

This is exactly how I feel. I don't like the atmosphere that we have to pick a "side" and not have any care for the ordinary people on the other "side".

I have also got to say that although I never really believed there was a serious anti-Semitism problem amongst some on the left, I am not sure I can say that with confidence now. Not after what I have read on SM, including on MN. It has really shaken me.

The best lack all conviction, the worst are full of passionate intensity is the line that springs to mind.

BIossomtoes · 17/10/2023 13:51

I don’t think there is a peaceful solution. Hamas has declared its ambition is to eliminate every Jew. The way it’s treating Palestinian civilians as collateral damage in its attempts to achieve this aim is despicable. I’m biased as my Jewish friends are telling me of their fear in the face of growing open antisemitism in London, they’re talking about leaving the country - although God knows where they’d go and be safe.

mibbelucieachwell · 17/10/2023 13:58

Hamas seem to be fundamentalist extremists. Who currently have nothing to lose.

I can't imagine anyone agreeing to this, but instead of a two state arrangement , could there not be a one state arrangement, comprising Lebanon, Israel and Palestine, (+ Syria? ). Put in a UN peacekeeping force. Have democratic elections and a constitution similar to the French one which separates religion from the state?

God given or not, the claims to the land refer to scriptures written thousands of years ago. And there have been Arabs and Jews in the area for a very long time.

Why has religion rather than ethnicity become such a force for harm recently?

Both claims to having exclusive right to the land can't be right!

Piggywaspushed · 17/10/2023 13:59

mibbelucieachwell · 17/10/2023 12:55

Yes. Absolutely.

It struck me that Humza Yousaf was very measured, especially at such an incredibly worrying time for him and his family.

On a Scot net thread critical of the SNP which I've previously posted on criticising the SNP I expressed sympathy for him. The only reply was to state that his family are no more or less important than anyone else, which goes without saying but displays a total lack of compassion.

Can people not be horrified by the despicable actions of Hamas and advocate a proportionate response?

Must say I find those threads disturbingly venomous in their anti SNP sentiment. But like the FWR threads, anyone who thinks a bit differently, or can see both sides is made to feel like their views lack legitimacy or are somehow anti woman/ anti Scot / just anti.

mibbelucieachwell · 17/10/2023 14:02

Posted too soon. The anti Jewish attacks in London are sickening.

IClaudine · 17/10/2023 14:06

I’m biased as my Jewish friends are telling me of their fear in the face of growing open antisemitism in London, they’re talking about leaving the country - although God knows where they’d go and be safe

This is where I have seen anti-Semitism rearing its head amongst some on the left--people trying to tell Jewish people in the UK that they are wrong to feel afraid. That would not be said to any other minority group feeling afraid and vulnerable.

BIossomtoes · 17/10/2023 14:12

I know it’s portrayed as a left/right issue @IClaudine but I think that’s misleading. However left leaning I might be - and I am - I simply can’t condone a terrorist group with the open intent to destroy an entire race. It’s too reminiscent of what happened 80 years ago.

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