When does terrorism become war?

[mids2019]

Looking at the news this morning I think the media are finding it difficult to register Palestinian attacks as a terrorism event or simply an attack of one state against another.

I suppose whether you view 5000 tickets as a terrorist atrocity or a declaration of war is dependent on your views on whether Palestine can ever be a functioning state. We plainly in Europe would describe such events as terrorism in that civilian populations have been targeted but in the eternally challenged middle East the use of such a word has political connurtations.

Is this a terrorist attack on Israel?

Absolutely no sympathy for Hamas.

Murder and abduction of civilians =terrorism

Confirmed Israeli air strikes on 2 hospitals run by Medecins Sans Frontieres in Gaza= state sponsored terrorism.

Its horrific what ordinary Israeli civilians have suffered today.

What many, many more ordinary Palestinian civilians will suffer over the coming days doesnt even bear thinking about.

Its like a humanitarian race to the bottom and there isn't an adult in the room 🙁

@Asthebellcurves I think you're the silly one, what laws do Gaza have of their own??

It seems not. Hamas leadership are saying they have prepared for all out war.

Al-Arouri claimed there are ongoing "intensive international and regional efforts" to end the crisis, "but now nothing will be more important than the battle."

CNN Report update

All of them? For example: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-gaza-hamas-women/gaza-law-barring-women-from-travel-without-male-consent-to-be-revised-judge-says-idUSKBN2AG21Y

They have their own government, laws, justice, economy. Gaza isn't occupied by Israel.

It’s just 50 years since the Yom Kippur war when the Arab coalition launched a surprise attack on Israel.
I wonder if it’s a coincidence.

As I said before, nearly all the people commenting in this mess of a thread are those who don't have direct experience of terrorism.

It's like this thread has become a kind of fantasy war for them.

One of the things I've not seen anyone mentioning here is the fact Hamas abuse the protection given to civilian infrastructure. Meaning schools, hospitals and so on.

UNRWA has stated before Hamas has placed rockets far too close to their (UN) schools.

https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools

Hamas has made NO secret of its tactic of using Palestinian civilians as so-called human shields. This is a war crime as well as perfidy.

Given that, Palestinian civilian deaths are always going to be much higher than Israeli civilian deaths.

74,370 people moved to Israel last year, a record number but similar to numbers year on year. That is actively making a choice to live complicity with the suffering of others for their own benefit. The current government isn’t popular and support for Netanyahu is low but that is not because of Israeli empathy or support for Palestinians. A new government will not end the suffering.

The average Israeli has access to the internet and can see and hear what is happening to Palestinian people for their own personal gain. Obviously there are Israelis making a stand - some leave, some refuse to serve and do a prison sentence instead, some actively oppose and try to make change from within. Without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, if I was living there I would take my family and leave - I couldn’t consciously benefit from occupation. I couldn’t have for my family what I took from another, I could never live peacefully.

I’m not currently in a country where people try to kill me but I have been. I’m still not popular in Britain with some people who would probably have a pop if they thought they could get away with it. It’s not about privilege, it’s about being morally sound. He who allows the oppression shares the crime.

Apologies, I did not realise you know me in real life. I have actually been to both Israel and Palestine. So please shut up.

No, I won't 'shut up' while you continue to spew your uneducated and ill informed narrative. Gaza is not under occupation.

@StaunchMomma

"Of course it's acceptable to show sympathy/support for Palestine generally but supporting terrorism is a different thing entirely."

+++

I think the actions by Hamas today has served to reduce sympathy/ support for the Palestinian cause across the world.

Is this the only thread on MN about the events today in Gaza and Israel?

I had hoped for one in Politics perhaps started by an informed poster with knowledgeable contributors adding to the discussion, similar to the threads on Ukraine. I have looked a number of times but cannot yet see one.

74,370 people moved to Israel last year, a record number but similar to numbers year on year. That is actively making a choice to live complicity with the suffering of others for their own benefit.

Sorry but this is a bloody outrageous thing to say. People- Jewish people- are perfectly entitled to move to Israel if they so choose. "To live complicitly with the suffering of others for their own benefit" Seriously - I'd appreciate it if you could clarify exactly what you mean by this.

The attachments is from NATO StratCom, IIRC.

It explains that Hamas use of civilians and civilian infrastructure as shields against Israeli retaliatory attacks is two pronged.

Part of Hamas terrorism and part of its lawfare. Now, lawfare is basically using the law against a State in a propagandistic manner.

So, the attacks by Hamas feeds into propaganda war against Israel which also extends towards Israeli citizens. Including Jews outwith Israel.

If Israel does nothing in response, Hamas will grow stronger. As it is, Israeli response does weaken Hamas who then resort to propaganda.

In a sense, Hamas use of civilians is a win-win for them yet it shows their complete disregard for civilians in Gaza and Israel alike.

This particular conflict is more complicated than many posting in here suggest.

There was one, but it got deleted. Uninformed posters making uninformed posts.

Invading another country and rounding up, shooting and kidnapping citizens is an act of war.

If it's bad when Russia does it, it's bad when Hamas does it.

Hamas is a terrifying, bloodthirsty terrorist organisation whose sole mission is to destroy the state of Israel. Believing a global terrorist organisation somehow gets a free pass or has an excuse to wreak murder and destruction on another state, smacks of anti Semitism.

I don't think it is possible to have such a thread, sadly.

Of course the actions of Israel don't justify attacks on Israelian civilians, but the actions of Hamas justify attacks and oppression of Palestinians. The israelian army has been shooting Palestinian citizen from behind. And assisted settlers who literally went from house to house like the terrorists did today and attacked Palestinians. But that won't make them lose anyone's sympathy, will it?

The double standard. Hate speech is acceptable if it is towards Palestinians...

Ok, thanks. Appreciate your reply.

Meanwhile Netanyahu is trying to assemble a unity government, as of a few minutes ago.

A thread about that might be possible?

You know you can start a thread, right?

If you’re freely choosing to move to a country that has been heavily documented oppressing millions of people due to their ethnicity for the benefit of others (e.g. with land, property, resources, freedom of movement) then I’d argue that yes, you’re complicit in their suffering as you’ll be directly benefiting as a result. Would you not agree?

I was having coffee with a good friend this morning sharing our horror at the unfolding situation.
She spent a large part of her childhood in Israel and returned as a young adult to live on a kibbutz before settling in the UK.

She had been torn about visiting friends and family in Israel recently precisely because she didn't want to show support in any form for the present Israeli administration and has been openly critical of past administrations.

Today's events have thrown it into stark contrast and she is adamant she won't be visiting Israel until there is political change away from the extreme right.

She is of course also horrified by the actions of Hamas.

As a British Jew married to an Israeli, I am terrified. How we will get up and dance around the Torah tomorrow for Simchat Torah, I have no idea.

We aren't safe anywhere.

Well, thanks for the heads up. If only my Jewish grandparents had known that they were showing their support for Britain's colonial past, the partition of India, the slave trade, abuse of native Australians...shall i go on...when they made their home here. Lucky they didn't choose Israel, hey, that would have been way worse. Wtaf.