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Biggest news story: Part 3

612 replies

Mimmy352 · 16/09/2023 15:40

Right so it’s being described as Baroque because whoever is writing it is from the 18th century and can’t figure out how to upload the story

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Messyhair321 · 17/09/2023 14:44

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Messyhair321 · 17/09/2023 14:56

He deserves due process, the big issue is that the media doesn't actually care about due process, whether he is guilty or innocent. I don't like celebrity gossip in general and I hate when stories like this kick off because I always feel like the media give zero fucks about accountability, or justice, or even the Truth.
What they care about is spinning a story that sells, that shocks & generates the most engagement, regardless of what actually happened.
Its one of those situations that unless you personally know the people involved they won't get a clear and unbiased understanding, imo

WinterDeWinter · 17/09/2023 15:27

ICanBuyMyOwnBooks · 17/09/2023 07:33

The way it was publicised created a disconnect. The pre-publicity technique did not protect or honour the women.

As someone who was working around and in media and entertainment circles at that time, I'm just disappointed it didn't go further. A lot of those incidents were widespread across news, tv, radio, music.

Sending runners or PAs to get phone numbers or pass on hotel room numbers - members of some of the biggest boy bands were doing that all the time. Inviting teens to dinners/parties and trying to exploit them - widespread from local to national radio. Coercing young, female staff and fans up to hotel rooms - some of the squeakiest clean pop stars. Grooming fans, inviting them to hotel rooms, then trying to coerce them into threesomes - some of the biggest tv presenters. Either this is an endemic problem with men or the entertainment and media industries deliberately cultivate it. My problem with Dispatches is that it didn't go far enough. It made it seem as though RB was the exception rather than the rule - and that means the industries and companies involved don't need to take responsibility or change. It also leaves women vulnerable because it creates a perception that it's not commonplace and that you can tell who the predators are ie wild-haired, talking about sex. Sometimes they're like that. Sometimes they're not.

Another great post - absolutely agree -

  • there was a disconnect between what was trailed and what we saw, which created a sense of anti-climax and diminished the true awfulness of the content. This may not have been C4's fault if it was a real leak.
  • Brand now appears to be an exceptional monster, which he certainly isn't

To add:
I used to make documentaries and felt that this film was really really unforgivably badly made. An absolutely wasted opportunity. The running order was terrible - different structural elements thrown together without any sense of building towards events or conclusions. Too often we went back and forth from something heinous and criminal to something more in the realm of 'being a shit'. Audiences need a certain amount of linearity to be able to 'weigh' this stuff and hold it in their minds in a hierarchy, so that they can experience the moral weight of things: this had the effect of undermining the seriousness of the worst stuff.

For eg. the makers didn't keep a clear divide between the runners being asked to pimp for him, and the runners being assaulted and/or physically intimidated. It was confusing and had the effect of diminishing the seriousness of both things. Likewise, 'being a shit' was mixed in with coercive behaviour was mixed in with rape and sexual assault, with the same outcome.

These different behaviours should have been sectioned away from each other, and linked by far more character/psychological analysis. So you'd build up from the minor to the major, keeping the material on the sexual assaults/rapes towards the end, and much more focused.

In general should have been more thoughtful with the material which comes under the heading of 'emotional abuse' I think. It gives those looking for a get-out a hook - 'being a shit is not a crime'. I'm thinking, for eg, of the girls from the audience with whom he'd had sex with and not called back, who then called the producers.

Rather than throwing it all into the pot, the filmmakers should have tackled the distinction themselves: So the v/o should have said (shorthand) 'of course, these behaviours ultimately come under the heading of [being a shit] - they are not a crime. But in its consistency and its relentlessness, it demonstrates a pattern of contempt for, and habitual misuse of women which gives context to what was about to happen to Alice.' And then onto the criminal stuff. As it was, they have allowed the likes of Sarah Vine (and some posters on here) to say 'Ah well, man behaves badly - shame, but...'

Often, I felt they had failed at the interview stage - they should definitely have asked better questions about the bath incident for example- this was coercive control in my view but it sounded weak with the testimony that they had. 'So what if he said 'stay in the bath till I get back - maybe he was just longer than he expected'. With better questions this could have been far more powerful - or they could have fixed the weaknesses in the testimony with careful v/o to set it up and bring out the nuance of it.

There was an absence of analyis to support the testimony overall: we should have had a psychologist explaining how coercive control works, for eg. with the bath incident. Why was there no discussion on, for eg, why a man would hold a woman down and spit in her mouth and force her to swallow it. That, for me, was the most shocking moment in the film. It should have been a huge moment. There should have been a fade to black, then a pause, while we all consider the horror of this, and then expert analysis showing that basically it makes him a psychopath. It was absolutely thrown away.

They also left out a huge amount of the stuff that was in the Sunday Times' piece which would have added psychological/emotional weight - Alice's mother's testimony that she felt that she would lose her daughter if she lay down the law; the fact that she dropped her off in a pitiful attempt to demonstrate to RB that her daughter wasn't entirely unprotected - and the really powerful bit about the taxi driver begging Alice not to go in. They also left out the rage/anger around the urine incident which gave a hint of why everyone was so scared of him.

There should also have been a big chunk on what so many of us have said about his live material - it was absolutely fucking shocking hearing him talk about choking girls with his penis and watching the mascara run, even without the echoes of Alice's testimony of being orally raped. How did we get to a point that this was ok - hilarious, even? There should have been more sociopolitical analyis of how we were gaslit at a societal level, and RB's role in that alongside many other comedians and (particularly, but ofc unlikely) channel 4 itself.

I would have kept ALL the statements to the end - sectioned them off entirely, if Legal would allow it (I don't know why they wouldn't, it's common.) They disrupted the film both in terms of its impact and its flow - of course this is not entertainment, but you can't risk boring n your audience either.

WinterDeWinter · 17/09/2023 15:40

Just to add - they made some really odd choices in terms of the testimony they used, when they should have been rigorous in asking 'does this definitively demonstrate a pattern of abusive behaviour'?. One example was the story about RB hold Alice's hand from the front seat. Alice was emotional, because it reminded her of her mother and made her feel like a (powerless?) child - but they should have realised that this is quite a subjective interpretation and the audience might interpret it as affection. At the very least they should have written into it to bring out the nuance and perhaps section it with the 'the child' and 'my baby' material. It was all just so thoughtless, as if they'd got lost in their own material and hadn't put it under 'headings' at the very beginning when they were doing a paper edit.

It's actually an exec producer failure in the end I think - it was all fixable, the editor/producer had clearly got lost and needed another eye to help them understand the significance and function of the various sections of testimony.

OneFrenchEgg · 17/09/2023 18:52

@WinterDeWinter oh I thought this - headings to collate and show it. Like predatory behaviour, inappropriate behaviour, workplace exhibitionist, rape allegations - rather than it all getting lost

Namddf · 17/09/2023 19:14

I agree with @WinterDeWinter - the doc was dreadfully executed. It became boring by the end as there was no narrative. They’ve done these poor women a disservice in so many ways.

Another point to mention is the ‘culture’ of comedy. I knew he was controversial and ailes close to the wind, but I was shocked at the ‘jokes’ Brand would tell on stage.

How was this stuff ever broadcast? And it still goes on. Even today there are comedians whose humour is borderline and yet we still seem to find it funny. I guess I’m talking about censorship, which is a tricky issue, but where is the line on this?

WinterDeWinter · 17/09/2023 20:09

Yes, exactly, that was what I was trying to get at with 'more sociopolitical analysis'.There were plenty of others - Frankie Boyle and his fucking rape jokes for eg - but RB must have been one of the worst. The gagging bit was just unbelievable. There's something about him that goes beyond black comedy, something which really seems to sneer at the audience 'you don't have the strength to stop me', just as he did to those women.

EasternStandard · 17/09/2023 20:15

Talking of production the loop in of his most recent response had an odd effect

I felt like it was a Black Mirror episode, where broadcast picks up SM in almost real time

PamelaAndreaGryglaszewska · 17/09/2023 20:27

I do wonder if he has a personality disorder. I was watching a reviewer who had to read My Booky Wook. She said he recounts his cruelty to the family dog (both physical and psychological); and fascination with his gerbils copulating and eating the young (which they do when they are not being fed properly); and finally his “accidentally” killing them by dropping the cage on them. Quite disturbing stuff.

WRT the documentary, I didn’t like the way they used the actresses. Focusing closely on their throats etc. Just felt weird and predatory in itself, and made it feel like a fiction rather an account of true events.

WinterDeWinter · 17/09/2023 20:38

Just to add - incredibly, I have personally been in a situation where I felt forced to step in between Russell Brand and some younger women, because boundaries were being pushed in the most extraordinarily rapid, completely overt, and thus very hard to challenge manner. They were young women in a work environment and he was a celebrity, so they were trapped. It was exactly the kind of 'look at me being - or perhaps pretending to be - a predator ' hiding-in-plain-sight MO that the documentary tried (and failed I think) to describe.

He knew exactly what I was doing and gave me what I can only describe as a look of pure hatred, as cliched as that sounds. He quickly turned that look into a mocking attempt to 'sexy-hug' me too (I was late-forties then, it was designed to humiliate me as I was so obviously undesirable and shrivelled up). His eyes were just.. dead. It genuinely frightened me and I am a loud-mouth rad fem who tells men in vans to fuck off etc.

I've never forgotten it, it was absolutely extraordinary. It's the only time I've ever felt like I've come into contact with something like a psychopath.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/09/2023 20:52

He knew exactly what I was doing and gave me what I can only describe as a look of pure hatred, as cliched as that sounds. He quickly turned that look into a mocking attempt to 'sexy-hug' me too

I totally know what you mean with this comment.

PamelaAndreaGryglaszewska · 17/09/2023 20:55

Was it like that look he gave Bob Geldof, when he called him a cunt at those NME awards? That was pure hatred/ narcissistic wounding. I think his reinvention as a cult like leader is quite indicative of psychopathy. You have to be pretty narcissistic to think you have the answers to everything and that you are the leader of “awakening wonders” who are overthrowing the establishment; when your background is in nothing more than prurient comedy and minor presenting jobs, and you are best known for being married to a much more famous person for 5 minutes.

Stupendousseptember · 17/09/2023 21:03

@WinterDeWinter
What was the rage around the urine incident!

Stupendousseptember · 17/09/2023 21:05

@PamelaAndreaGryglaszewska

He's definitely got several personality disorder and I think he absolutely hates himself.

WinterDeWinter · 17/09/2023 21:05

It was more as though he was locking onto my own eyes than that @PamelaAndreaGryglaszewska - sort of pupil to pupil. My hands were shaking and it still gives me genuine shivers to recall - ERGH. But I know exactly what you mean about how he looked at Bob Geldof - it really was narcissistic wounding wasn't it?

BG as an aside went up massively in my estimation with that 'what a cunt' line - I wonder if it was before or after RB's mate Noel Fielding 33 met Pixie Geldof 16?

WinterDeWinter · 17/09/2023 21:08

@Stupendousseptember in the Sunday Times story they described him as going into a violent rage during that same incident, when there was a minor in the room. They didn't say why or go into detail.

@PamelaAndreaGryglaszewska forgot to say you're absolutely right about the psychopathology of all gurus / wannabe gurus.

Stupendousseptember · 17/09/2023 21:09

Excellent critique of it winter de winter but this is obviously your expertise. I also thought the bath incident was misleading.

Stupendousseptember · 17/09/2023 21:12

@WinterDeWinter re the rapid boundary pushing you could see that in the documentary when he pulls his pants down, quickly moves woman's leg and sits on her.
It wasn't the pants it was the way he moved her leg.

Theyspunawebforme · 17/09/2023 21:12

The bath incident was very odd

I wonder how things are for his wife, she seems very lovely

Namddf · 17/09/2023 21:15

WRT the documentary, I didn’t like the way they used the actresses. Focusing closely on their throats etc. Just felt weird and predatory in itself, and made it feel like a fiction rather an account of true events.

I didn’t like this either. Just as I don’t like the glorification and dramatisation of violence against women the BBC insists on putting as their primetime entertainment slot.

If anything is to change for women we need to stop rot like this.

Stupendousseptember · 17/09/2023 21:18

@ThnksfrthMmrs

I bet he couldn't believe his luck re masseuse. They get away with things and grow in confidence

OvaHere · 17/09/2023 21:43

WinterDeWinter · 17/09/2023 20:38

Just to add - incredibly, I have personally been in a situation where I felt forced to step in between Russell Brand and some younger women, because boundaries were being pushed in the most extraordinarily rapid, completely overt, and thus very hard to challenge manner. They were young women in a work environment and he was a celebrity, so they were trapped. It was exactly the kind of 'look at me being - or perhaps pretending to be - a predator ' hiding-in-plain-sight MO that the documentary tried (and failed I think) to describe.

He knew exactly what I was doing and gave me what I can only describe as a look of pure hatred, as cliched as that sounds. He quickly turned that look into a mocking attempt to 'sexy-hug' me too (I was late-forties then, it was designed to humiliate me as I was so obviously undesirable and shrivelled up). His eyes were just.. dead. It genuinely frightened me and I am a loud-mouth rad fem who tells men in vans to fuck off etc.

I've never forgotten it, it was absolutely extraordinary. It's the only time I've ever felt like I've come into contact with something like a psychopath.

Edited

This reminds me of Saville and the hospital matrons.

WinterDeWinter · 17/09/2023 22:06

@OvaHere I don’t know about that - have had a quick google but nothing coming up, could you link or explain?

OvaHere · 17/09/2023 22:14

WinterDeWinter · 17/09/2023 22:06

@OvaHere I don’t know about that - have had a quick google but nothing coming up, could you link or explain?

It was fairly well known that the older matrons on the hospital wards would covertly try to protect the patients and younger nurses whenever Saville was lurking around.

They couldn't overtly be rude to him or kick him out because at the time he was 'a very important and charitable man'. They knew who he was though.

I can't give you a specific link but it is one of those things that has been talked about in general and I think featured in some of the numerous programmes about Saville.

WinterDeWinter · 17/09/2023 22:21

Ah gotcha yes - I do remember that.

When I was googling Savile just now I came across a description of his ‘constant sexual innuendo’ towards junior hospital staff and it resonated horribly.

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