That World Cup kiss

[mids2019]

The news about the world cup is being dominated by an unsolicited kiss on the lips on a Spanish player. I do not want to condone the rather bizarre and overly personal celebration of the head of Spanish football (idiot) but I do feel the whole matter has drawn focus away from the football on the pitch and made the hugely successful world cup a feminist issue where discussions are now revolving around appropriate behaviour between men and women rather than the actual sport.

Young girl players instead of looking up to the heroic exploits of our players are now getting drawn into much more general discussions about personal limits and what constitutes assault. I think this is all a pity really.

@Agapornis

nope to your question.

I do wonder if this will be reported to the Spanish police given the strength of feeling in the matter?

I don't think OP is completely wrong. Discussions about consent and entitlement have dominated discussions about the game itself in a way that would never happen if a male player reported being non-consensually groped by his coach after winning a world cup final.
I think the difference is that people who report on men's soccer just love the game. Whereas lots of journalists and commentators are interested in women's soccer not because they love the game, but because women's sport is a feminist issue. These commentators are not intetested in a blow-by-blow discussion of the game. They are intetested in discussions around male entitlement, abusive behaviour hiding in plain sight, women being socialised to tolerate it.
It's important to talk about those things. But there's an imbalance, I think, women's soccer not yet taken as seriously as a sporting phenomenon, more of a social phenomenon.

Well whose fault is that? If he’d done normal courtesy kisses this issue would never have arisen. But God forbid women should make a fuss about being grabbed and given a huge smacker on their lips by their boss.

'Disagree op - a woman speaking out about her boundaries being overstepped and many many other women coming out in solidarity is very good role modelling for other young women.'

Spot on. I really thought this would be a no brainer, and can't believe there are women on here defending him and dismissing the whole issue. Jenni Hermoso has been crystal clear that she did not consent and sees that kiss as a violation. I'm really heartened by how many players are refusing to play again until he resigns or is dismissed. The story is not moving on, and nothing is being swept under the carpet. For now

If you're frustrated that the incident is pulling focus from women's sport, then blame the utter shitbag who grabbed her head in both hands and forcibly kissed her. Not 'feminism', 'the media', or any other made up nonsense

Jesus, women are at risk of sexual assault even after winning a sporting event, on live TV, in front of millions of people. Some of you need to have serious words with yourselves

I’m a sports coach working with young athletes of both sexes. I ask for consent before touching an athlete EVERY SINGLE TIME (for example when adjusting their position). Because that is what my governing federation requires me to do. The only time I can touch an athlete without first asking for consent is in an emergency or threat-to-life situation.

@DontGetEvenGetEverything

well articulated. I certainly didn't want to trivialize important issues but only wanted to highlight the point that women s football benefits from a focus on the sport rather than necessarily being used as a platform to highlight societal problems (which are important!)

It was gross, plus the crotch grabbing incident and reportedly announcing to the team they would all go to Ibiza and he would marry her there. Ugh. Imagine a woman (Princess Anne?) there in an official capacity, grabbing her crotch, forcing a lip smacking head holding kiss on the team captain and declaring she would marry him. I don’t think so. Well done ladies for calling this out.

Watching the video, there are bugs with open arms from the players and he kisses several of them on the cheek mid hug. Kissing on the lips is just not appropriate even for a demonstrative nation after a win.

Very different from this. I’ve watched football for years and there have always been huggies. But this incident was very different. I’d never see Prince William grab Harry Kane and give him a massive smacker on the mouth while holding the back of his head. I doubt if Rubiales would’ve done this to the male team. But it’s women innit so he can just do what he likes when the mood takes him.

Absolutely not. You don't need to sexually assault people to coach them in a sport.

No, women's football is about so much more than sport.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Should assault be a criminal matter?
At the risk of repeating myself: JFC. You need some level of educating.

Something being assualt or not isn't dependent on the feelings of the person. There is a lot of implied consent in sport. If you saw the women when they celebrated, they grabbed each others bodies and heads without asking for consent at all.

This guy could have done the exact same action to two women, one who then said it was fine, part of sports, and one who said it made her uncomfortable and she didn't like it. Those feelings come about after the action and therefore can't be the basis for determining the action was right or wrong.

There is a lot of context and history in this case but feelings after the fact don't change whether or not something is assault. Implied consent gets very tricky. There is a lot of implied consent in sport based on perceived relationships (between players, between players and coaches etc). For example if this was two of the players and they grabbed and hugged each other and then one kissed the other - it would be the same action. If the kissed player said it made her uncomfortable after the fact, would it also be seen immediately as sexual assault?

@DontGetEvenGetEverything

Whereas lots of journalists and commentators are interested in women's soccer not because they love the game, but because women's sport is a feminist issue. These commentators are not interested in a blow-by-blow discussion of the game

JFC - have you read any of the papers during the course of the world cup? Have you watched any of the games? They were all about game analysis. They weren't all sitting around discussing the latest wave of feminism.

Stop making shit up.

@WhenIWasAFieldMyself

I will.leave criminal prosecution to the Spanish police. I will educate myself on Spanish law.

No. I think most of us think that men shouldn't sexually assault women.

I teach boys. Lots of them. I manage, funnily enough, not to grab their dicks and snog them while holding their heads fast so they can't turn away. Must be a superpower eh?

Whilst I’ve read about the background to the Spanish team, and I know that we live in a sexist society (and over-exuberant emotional traits would appear to be common in Latino countries), I always think that the responses of players and supporters of the winning team in football particularly, but other sports too, are completely over the top.

If I was in the vicinity of people celebrating a win not at all likely and was grabbed and kissed by someone of either sex, I wouldn’t enjoy it but I also wouldn’t consider myself violated or expect anyone to resign over the matter. If I were to watch a replay of all of the celebrations after the men’s World Cup over the years, I think there is the distinct possibility that I would see the odd man kissing another man in a similar way.

The sexist behaviour of the men involved in running the team should absolutely be highlighted and acted upon but the kiss, in the context of how sports supporters behave in the heat of the moment, is a lesser issue in my opinion.

No to which bit?

Are you a bloke? Or do you sexually assault women?

@mids2019 please could you tell me what you think of this post as you don’t seem to grasp it wasn’t just this kiss.

Imagine your daughter getting to the top of her sporting profession and not wanting to be in the team for her country as the management were like this. They knew the women were complaining but did not alter their behaviour. Even having the audacity on camera to do things like grabbing his crotch, putting the woman in a tight hold and kissing her on the lips and another grabbing breasts.
The women have repeatedly complained. The women’s game as a whole is being affected. It is systemic abuse and the women who have complained over and over and got nowhere finally have a spotlight. Despite winning and wanting to celebrate, this matters more. Don’t you see how important it is to them that they are forgoing celebrations? Don’t you think they want to celebrate their work too?

And also, to the poster who said this is a cultural issue - it isn't. In Spain, it's customary to greet someone, male or female, with a kiss. Two kisses actually - but on either cheek.

Let's not forget that kissing on the lips is much more sexual than this. Add to that the way he's gripping her head, and this has clear connotations of sexual predatoriness.

... and if you look at the picture posted above, her arms are held way out from his body. She isn't participating in that kiss at all.

Completely agree. If you watch interviews on TV with “the ordinary Spanish woman on the street” they all agree that his actions were unacceptable. He needs to resign, pronto.

@Judashascomeintosomemoney

no not a bloke and no I don't assault people. I think it's a bit rude to suggest I do.

I don't agree that it is a pity at all, and I don't think it detracts from the sport.

He crossed a boundary that he would have been unlikely to have crossed had it been a man. Women should not have to put up with this humiliating shit.

If Rubiales won't resign he needs to be sacked. For now though, he seems to have the support of the other misogynists in the Spanish FA - and so it will continue unless an about turn can be forced.

@saffronsoup the context is totally different. I worked in France where it was common to greet your colleagues with kisses-socially acceptable kisses. Very different from the head of the organisation grabbing your head and planting a big smacker on the lips because he just assumed a level of entitlement. Hugging and kissing colleagues and coaches is different because it’s your peers and it’s not forced and it’s normally to celebrate a goal etc in the immediate aftermath. Socially acceptable. What he did was wrong-the different feelings are irrelevant. Would you say the same to a man who groped you in the pub because some women might like it?