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Original poster

That World Cup kiss

331 replies

mids2019 · 26/08/2023 08:03

The news about the world cup is being dominated by an unsolicited kiss on the lips on a Spanish player. I do not want to condone the rather bizarre and overly personal celebration of the head of Spanish football (idiot) but I do feel the whole matter has drawn focus away from the football on the pitch and made the hugely successful world cup a feminist issue where discussions are now revolving around appropriate behaviour between men and women rather than the actual sport.

Young girl players instead of looking up to the heroic exploits of our players are now getting drawn into much more general discussions about personal limits and what constitutes assault. I think this is all a pity really.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
saffronsoup · 26/08/2023 09:16

Sport celebrations can be very physical and very touchy feely. If you look at the men’s World Cup, there were also lots of hugs and kisses (none with apparent request for consent). Just people grabbing each other in celebration.

It also isn’t really about how it made her feel. He could have done the same action to 5 women on the team and each would have felt differently, some feeling it was fine, others feeling uncomfortable. There are also individual and cultural factors at play in what is appropriate in a greeting or celebration.

Clearly in this setting the context and the lack of close relationship made it wrong and he didn’t care or consider anything else. However there is a lot of grabbing and kissing and hugging in sports celebrations generally (between men and men, men and women and women’s bad women) so it will be interesting to see if this changes what is seen as acceptable. Coaches and players on the bench will often run onto the field and grab the winning players.

Will the pre-existing context and tension end up being the key factor here or will it lead to a general view that sport celebrations should be less physically intimate.

Original poster
mids2019 · 26/08/2023 09:17

I have read the messages and I get it to some extent. Do you think then that men should not be involved in women's football as having female managers and officials.would presumably stop what some see as an endemic problem?

OP posts:
Ylvamoon · 26/08/2023 09:17

@mids2019 - watch the clip again, he's holding her head , she can't move away.

Yes, team spots are high emotions spots asd hugging, kissing, dancing can be a form of celebrating success.

BUT how appropriate any celebrations are depends entirely on the relationships you have within the team.

Nothing constitutes as an excuse for abuse or assault.

Good on the Spanish team to use this to get rid of that slime ball!

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Football General sports
IClaudine · 26/08/2023 09:19

mids2019 · 26/08/2023 09:17

I have read the messages and I get it to some extent. Do you think then that men should not be involved in women's football as having female managers and officials.would presumably stop what some see as an endemic problem?

No. Men just need to learn how to behave around women.

Tomikka · 26/08/2023 09:19

He has a long history of allegations which he has managed to get away with

This time it was public and broadcast to the world
Those who would like to sweep it under the carpet can’t, and those who would like to have dealt with him before get their ‘justice’

As mentioned earlier it’s not just a ‘European thing’ being more ‘touchy feely’, the Spanish see him as a misogynist

It does take up news time, but it’s news

Original poster
mids2019 · 26/08/2023 09:20

@saffronsoup .

I think you have some good points and I think there is a debate about what constitutes assault on a sporting context. Football is a physical game and in a sense it would be patronising to suggest that womens football should be less physical than men's (at least on the pitch). The debate seems to be around whether the physicality should extend off the field of play and what are the ground rules for appropriate displays of affection and celebration.

OP posts:
usernother · 26/08/2023 09:21

He is an total arse but I agree it's been blown out of proportion and when he apologised that should have been enough.

NotMadeOfStone · 26/08/2023 09:21

That's the most wrongheaded post from the first to last sentence @mids2019

Basically your sentiment is 'wheesht you whinging women' and 'we wouldn't have had this shit if England had won'.

Bananasplitlady · 26/08/2023 09:21

I absolutely think she has done the right thing but I also think that from the possessive way he grabbed all those young women, this was not the first time he has behaved like that and there was finally evidence to call him out. This was not end of match high emotion, holding her head is such a power move and anyone whose had their head held like that when they were not consenting knows how that feels.

WhenIWasAFieldMyself · 26/08/2023 09:21

saffronsoup · 26/08/2023 09:16

Sport celebrations can be very physical and very touchy feely. If you look at the men’s World Cup, there were also lots of hugs and kisses (none with apparent request for consent). Just people grabbing each other in celebration.

It also isn’t really about how it made her feel. He could have done the same action to 5 women on the team and each would have felt differently, some feeling it was fine, others feeling uncomfortable. There are also individual and cultural factors at play in what is appropriate in a greeting or celebration.

Clearly in this setting the context and the lack of close relationship made it wrong and he didn’t care or consider anything else. However there is a lot of grabbing and kissing and hugging in sports celebrations generally (between men and men, men and women and women’s bad women) so it will be interesting to see if this changes what is seen as acceptable. Coaches and players on the bench will often run onto the field and grab the winning players.

Will the pre-existing context and tension end up being the key factor here or will it lead to a general view that sport celebrations should be less physically intimate.

He has done the same for years. Look at library footage of him. He needs his hands chopping off. They're on women's bodies far more often than by his side. He literally can't help himself.
I'd never heard of him till this month, but I work with two Spanish people, one man and one woman who both (before this tournament) expressed surprise he hadn't been stopped before.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 26/08/2023 09:21

mids2019 · 26/08/2023 09:09

I agree the guy is an arse and a kiss on the lips was socially inappropriate (this was a brief contact of lips). However a kiss on the cheek and hugging I think is acceptable behaviour in a high emotion sporting arena so I actually think a kiss on the lips while socially wrong maybe falls into a grey area. There are mixed messages about whether the player involved consented and I guess in such a noisy atmosphere there is going to be debate about what actually was said.

I do take the points about wider discussions about boundaries which are important but I think it is a pity such a high profile sporting event maybe dominated by these discusions. Huge efforts have been made by the sport and presenting teams to avoid talking overly about gender and having the whole focus being on sporting achievement which is important. There will be other areas to discuss make behaviour but in this instance Mary Earp's save should be on everyones lips.

I think women presenters (and male) want to talk about a sport they are passionate about and I detect an element of unease when they are pressures to voice opinion on sexual politics (maybe rightly so).

Another point is that you don't want to make the Spanish football chief a martyr to what some would seem political correctness as in some ways that may be counter productive. It is extremely important cases of sexual misconduct are called out but there is balance to be struck and I don't think women s football wants to appear to 'anti men'.

In reality I think for the sport the wrong team won the final and there would have been a much more celebratory end to this great sporting spectacle of England has won. There seems to be a lot of issues with the Spanish team that has deflected from the sport and I don't know if their success is necessarily an aid to the sport in general.

When it comes to unwanted intimate contact OP what else falls into this "grey " area you speak of?

WhenIWasAFieldMyself · 26/08/2023 09:22

mids2019 · 26/08/2023 09:20

@saffronsoup .

I think you have some good points and I think there is a debate about what constitutes assault on a sporting context. Football is a physical game and in a sense it would be patronising to suggest that womens football should be less physical than men's (at least on the pitch). The debate seems to be around whether the physicality should extend off the field of play and what are the ground rules for appropriate displays of affection and celebration.

JFC.
Please tell me you don't have daughters.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 26/08/2023 09:23

Sorry, also missed your getting "political correctness" into your post.

Wow Grin

Babdoc · 26/08/2023 09:23

OP, what do you not understand about the very basic concept of consent?
You seem to be advocating for men to have the right to sexually assault women at will, as long as it’s at a sporting event and they apologise afterwards.

Ifulikepinacoladas · 26/08/2023 09:25

toddlermum27 · 26/08/2023 08:37

Disagree op - a woman speaking out about her boundaries being overstepped and many many other women coming out in solidarity is very good role modelling for other young women.

This times infinity. It needs calling out every single time.

43ontherocksporfavor · 26/08/2023 09:27

Disgusting behaviour that’s unfortunately seen as acceptable by many. Why he couldn’t just shake her hand or high five her I don’t know! Even asking to kiss her hand would be old school but more polite.

Original poster
mids2019 · 26/08/2023 09:27

I think if the chief had hugged a player without consent that would be fine. I have seen players of both sexes hug and consent hasn't been given for physical contact. The issue seems to be about a kiss without consent.

OP posts:
Agapornis · 26/08/2023 09:27

mids2019 · 26/08/2023 09:20

@saffronsoup .

I think you have some good points and I think there is a debate about what constitutes assault on a sporting context. Football is a physical game and in a sense it would be patronising to suggest that womens football should be less physical than men's (at least on the pitch). The debate seems to be around whether the physicality should extend off the field of play and what are the ground rules for appropriate displays of affection and celebration.

Fucking hell. The 'ground rules' required exist in law - don't sexually assault or harass people. Simple as that. She objects and has spoken out against it.

Do you not understand consent? Are you by any chance a man who sexually harasses people?

43ontherocksporfavor · 26/08/2023 09:28

It’s not a cheek peck either or air kiss , it’s a full on lip smacker whilst holding her head!!

Original poster
mids2019 · 26/08/2023 09:30

@Agapornis

I agree and I don't in anyway condone assault on any way. From your post should this be a criminal matter?

OP posts:
43ontherocksporfavor · 26/08/2023 09:30

His lying makes it so much worse. Just apologise!

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 26/08/2023 09:31

CaveMum · 26/08/2023 09:09

Spanish FA are now threatening legal action against Jennifer Hermoso for “lies”. 81 female players have publicly said they will refuse to play for Spain if called up.

It doesn’t matter if you, I or Marge next door wouldn’t be bothered by the kiss, they key is Jennifer Hermoso WAS and it is her feelings alone that matter in this case and the exposure of the male sense of entitlement to female bodies that goes along with it.

Absolutely this. To quote another poster, consent is not transferable.

IMustDoMoreExercise · 26/08/2023 09:32

Threenow · 26/08/2023 08:29

I agree with you @iDontBelieveAnyOfYou. It's such a ridiculous thing to have all this drama over, and has taken the focus off the team and its achievements.

No it isn't ridiculous at all.

It is actually the best thing that could have happened for the Spanish footballers and for Spanish women in general.

The whole world is watching and they have to do the right thing. If he had done this away from the cameras, it would have just been swept under the carpet.

These men in Spain think that they can do anything and that they cannot be touched. The world is saying that they can't.

When the 15 footballers said that they would not play in the Spain national team, it hardly got any attention even in Spain.

Agapornis · 26/08/2023 09:33

mids2019 · 26/08/2023 09:30

@Agapornis

I agree and I don't in anyway condone assault on any way. From your post should this be a criminal matter?

Yes, sexual assault and harassment IS a criminal matter.

Again, are you by any chance a man - one who sexually harasses people?

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 26/08/2023 09:33

mids2019 · 26/08/2023 09:17

I have read the messages and I get it to some extent. Do you think then that men should not be involved in women's football as having female managers and officials.would presumably stop what some see as an endemic problem?

Or men could finally start behaving appropriately towards women, and women could stop being apologists for such shitty behaviour.