Lucy Letby guilty - part 2

[twoandcooplease]

Thread 1 Lucy Letby guilty www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4875009-lucy-letby-guilty

Just in case anyone wants to keep the conversation going

People were writing very good transcripts of the days they attended. There were podcasts. There were threads galore online.

The jury were told that they didn’t notice it for so long in Baby F’s case because the blood results took so long to come back.

But someone on the Panorama doc also stated that when they did the bloods, the lab machine doesn’t automatically flag up high levels of insulin and when the junior doctor looked over the results they missed how high the insulin levels were. Probably because they weren’t specifically looking at insulin as being the problem? I’m not sure which baby this was referring to though.

They also explained that in naturally occurring raised Insulin levels, the body’s naturally occurring peptide levels increase in equal measure alongside it. In these cases, the c peptide levels were low whilst the insulin levels were high, showing it was synthetically induced. It could be possible they checked the insulin levels as being high but didn’t check the c peptide level and thought it was just naturally occurring for whatever reason.

She also admitted during cross examination that she wasn’t aware of what c peptide was. So she thought they wouldn’t realise that the insulin levels were synthetically induced and not naturally occurring. That’s how they knew (she and the defence seemed to agree - albeit they said it wasn’t her who did it - that the insulin cases were attempted murder.

Ive missed quite a lot of this, what happened about the bin, the stand and the note?

I read a lot of court paperwork and judges' sentencing remarks as part of my job and because I am a nosey cow. What is reported in the media is generally a tiny fragment of what's presented in court; journos really only care about the attention-grabbing bits and the verdict. There is always always more presented in court, but unless you are there in court or reading transcripts, you won't necessarily know about it.

I wish all the people baying for her to be dragged to court for sentencing would join the prison service or the prisoner escort services like Serco, and do a bit of dragging themselves. Think of the fun they could have fighting crackheads on and off the vans.

In every NHS trust I've worked in when you need to attend a formal meeting, you can bring either a union rep or a workplace colleague...not your father nor your next door neighbour nor a random off the street.

So her bringing her father is very unusual and I'm surprised it was allowed.

In this case all of those who ignored the consultants were either nurses or doctors.

Ian Harvey (medical director)- Orthopedic Surgeon

Tony Chambers (CEO)- Nurse

Karen Rees (Head of Nurse for Urgent Care)- Nurse

Alison Kelly (Nursing and Quality Director)- Nurse

Ruth Millward (Head of Risk and Patient Safety)- Nurse

@sleepyscientist @TheWindyManTheLongMover

It’s usually only a work colleague or trade union official. Some employers or policies may allow a friend, family member etc but it’s not a legal requirement

Is her father a solicitor? 🤔

Good point, thank you. I conflated two of my personal gripes there, inaccurately, and i appreciate the correction. Even so, it is still horribly difficult to get a complaint taken seriously, whatever the clinical or non-clinical background of the Board is.

Tariff and sentence are not the same thing

Of course she will receive a life sentence, that is the norm for murder.

What she serves as a tariff is different, although I would expect for something like this a whole life tariff but they are rare

You couldn't live with it and neither could I. But I think LL is a psychopath and therefore won't feel any guilt at all.

That would be even less reason to allow him to accompany her. But as far as I know he was a shop manager or similar.

I don't think there is actually any alternative to whole life for this. She has been convicted of SEVEN murders, the only possible option is a whole life tariff. Whether she goes to prison or a Special Hospital is not a matter for the court, and she may well move between both for the rest of her miserable little life.

I think she might though because although she won’t feel guilt she might not also relish the prison life

That's correct. Some workplaces may allow more leeway in a choice of employee companion; but their role is as a companion (rather than a 'representative') and their role is v circumscribed according to ACAS.

So even if her father was there in that capacity, it is still a mystery why he was so heavily involved in discussions with the CEO and in a position to demand the apology from the consultants.

Absolutely, I find it scarier that those who are qualified healthcare professionals can be so dismissive of these concerns to be honest. The issue runs so deep that without serious serious changes I don't see how it will get any better.

Ok then agreed, this is weird and somehow points even more to her guilt but I can’t explain why. Everything seems to point towards guilt now in my mind whereas before I was so on the fence.

one element i find very interesting is that murderers do not generally change their modus operandi. Beverly Allit, Harold Shipman etc used the same method over and over. Letby didn’t. Weird. I’m sure much more will come out on this as she has a long life to live. Myra Hindley offered more information as she aged. There’s more to come for sure.

The one part I have complete doubt over, yet others seem convinced by, is the work rota data. Several similar nurse patient death convictions have been overturned by reliance on this kind of data. It looks so convincing in an excel spreadsheet but can in fact be totally meaningless. I hope this wasn't a deciding factor for the jury.

I can see this being eventually overturned in 10-15 years so I'm not joining the baying.

Has she had any diagnosis yet?

Does she realise she did these things, is she in complete denial to herself or just trying to keep lying?

I don’t think it was, it was reported that they admitted they touched in and our for each other. Something else with the insulin bags, the signatories would sign but maybe not even see the bag (could be wrong on the details of thie)

There's nothing to indicate this was a deciding factor, if it was then you wouldn't expect them to have returned 2 NG verdicts and several hung verdicts. You'd expect them to return guilty across the board as she was present for all of the ones in the trial. The defence at the time highlighted the limitations of such data (and the swipe data) so it was made clear. This was undone imo when she testified and said she used to go in on her days off sometimes too or be really early for and stay late on rota'd shifts and not always swipe.

Just picked up your post from last night, @Lemieux7 - yes, Beverley Allitt's still in Rampton (I should have said this rather than "in jail")

It's definitely been said that she's been eligible for parole since 2021 though, but I don't know how this works when Rampton's involved

She isn't eligible for parole unless she is returned to the general prison population. As this isn't likely to ever happen as she'd have to have her section lifted it's unlikely she will ever be able to.

To those saying that NHS senior management should be clinically trained in order to improve the dire situation where managers and peers close ranks and discredit destroy honourable, conscientious and courageous whistleblowers:

Several of the senior NHS managers in the LL case are actually former nurses. It is reported that they protected LL and had her back because she was a fellow nurse.

Bosses at Countess of Chester Hospital

1. CEO: Tony Chambers: A* 57-year-old former nurse was on a salary of £160,000 before he left the trust — within months of Lucy Letby's arrest in July 2018 — after six years in charge. His wife is the pro-vice-chancellor of the faculty of health and education *at Manchester Metropolitan University. Tony has worked in many posts commanding salaries between 100-200K PA.

2. Medical Director: Ian Harvey: was an orthopaedic surgeon before he was made medical director at the hospital. A source told the Mail: 'Harvey retired very quickly in 2018. After Letby's arrest he cancelled his General Medical Council subscription and went to the South of France.'3. Nursing and Quality Director: Alison Kelly: enjoyed a generous salary package of £130,000 when Lucy Letby was targeting the newborns under her care in 2015.During her time at the Countess of Chester she attended many lavish awards ceremonies, and often took to the stage to hand out the gongs.The hospital's social media accounts are littered with pictures of her presenting various accolades — some of which were at champagne-quaffing, black-tie events at Chester Racecourse.By the time Mrs Kelly left the trust in 2021, she also held the position of deputy chief executive and was taking home as much as £150,000 per year. She also was made on the 2014 NHS Nursing power list.4. Head of Nursing for Urgent Care: Karen Rees/Moore: former nurse promoted to become* nursing chief. She was LL's line manager ^Karen was also the member of staff whose lack of action meant that a baby died after Dr Brearey explicitly and urgently warned her about LL. Dr Brearey called her late one night pleading to take LL off the rota immediately but Karen refused. So LL came back in the following day and murdered another baby. Dr Brearey said in evidence: 'I explained what had happened and said I didn't want Nurse Letby to come back to work the following day or until this was investigated properly. Karen said no to that, and [that] there was no evidence.'The crux of the conversation was that I then put to her, was she happy to take responsibility for this decision in view of the fact that myself and consultant colleagues would not be happy with Nurse Letby going to work the following day?'She responded, yes, she would be happy'. I said, ''Would you be happy if something happened to any of the babies the following day?'' She [Karen] *said, ''Yes''.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12287421/Lucy-Letby-Bosses-Countess-Chester-Hospital-neonatal-nurse-free-murder.html
It's not at all about directors and senior managers being non-clinical, on the contrary, the ones with clinical background seem the worst, enjoying massive salaries after questionable promotions, glitzy ceremonies but have absolutely zero critical thinking skills or any moral compass. 😡

I hope this whole gang of senior managers will be held responsible and soon. Why should they enjoy massive pensions and salaries paid fo by the tax payers?