Lucy Letby guilty - part 2

[twoandcooplease]

Thread 1 Lucy Letby guilty www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4875009-lucy-letby-guilty

Just in case anyone wants to keep the conversation going

@bellac11 They are rare but I would be amazed if it was not whole life in this case.

Oh god don't encourage her 🙄

Yes, I hope it wasn't.

The newspapers are bigging it up ... simplistic spreadsheet .... but hopefully it wasn't so impactful on the jury and they have weighed up the other evidence.

I do still think this will eventually be overturned, but in a long time.

Wow - i didnt know hhis!

The mgt need to be brought up on corporate manslaughter charges IMHO.

A retired retail manager apparently ...

Something new I learned from the Panorama last night was that LL was herself a ‘poorly baby’ and credited nurses for having saved her life as a newborn - which influenced her own career choice. I’d not heard that before.

I can’t help but wonder if there is some significance in that for her somewhere.

A pp speculated whether LL's father knew any of the senior managers personally and if that's why he accompanied his daughter to the hearing but I doubt this. It sounds more like her parents believed she could do no wrong.

Maybe LL was a massively mollycoddled and indulged only child? LL herself told a friend that her parents are overbearing. Or maybe her parents also have obsessive /controlling tendencies. In any case, I have no difficulty believing someone white, middle class blonde and reasonably pretty could be capable of such crimes.

I'm not even sure she was middle class anyway (not that it matters)? Her dad is a retail boss, her mum an accounts clerk, and LL was the first in her family to go to University hardly an aspiring middle class family? We don't know what happened in LL's childhood and whether she was somehow abused during her formative years or whether she was over indulged and never could do any wrong in her parents' eyes?

The suggestion that LL was acting out some sort of trauma as she and her mother had a difficult birth experience seems also far fetched but who knows? There is a 13 year old age difference between her parents, maybe there were medical issue why LL has no siblings or some other trauma around babies and child brith in the family, which gave LL a sense of guilt that she had to somehow act out.

Her mother yelling that LL is innocent and that she herself committed the crimes hints that not all is normal. Very odd, all of it. I hope that the senior consultants are well supported and all the victims' families.

I also find the reported evidence not exactly overwhelming, and can’t help have in mind people like Andy Malkinson right now. Hopefully however the 10 months of all the evidence being presented etc was more convincing than the bits in the papers.

You are not getting out of Rampton no matter what your sentence was or whether you are up for a parole unless the psychiatrists and doctors there consider you mentally well and part of that is likely to be able to understand your crime was wrong and feel remorse etc. Alit isn't leaving Rampton. Either shes too unwell to understand what she did and the gravity of it, or she has realised that and the level of trauma involved in realising that you had murdered children isn't going to lead to someone being mentally well. She will likely die in Rampton.

I do still think this will eventually be overturned, but in a long time. why? Seriously I don’t understand why so many posters are tying themselves in knots to think this woman is innocent.

I wouldn’t be surprised if we get a lot more insight into her mental condition at the sentencing hearing.

@Tippley

In this case all of those who ignored the consultants were either nurses or doctors.

Ian Harvey (medical director)- Orthopedic Surgeon

Tony Chambers (CEO)- Nurse

Karen Rees (Head of Nurse for Urgent Care)- Nurse

Alison Kelly (Nursing and Quality Director)- Nurse

Ruth Millward (Head of Risk and Patient Safety)- Nurse

Thank you posting this, The formatting in my post was all muddled up but the list above is shocking, all health care practitioners who were over promoted getting fat cat salaries paid for by you and me. Living a glitzy live and enjoying the power they probably didn't expect to ever have.

Are there any lawyers here who can explain how corporate manslaughter charges work? Ian, Tony, Karen, Alison and Ruth must be held accountable. Yes LL was the murderer but Ian, Tony, Karen, Alison and Ruth enabled her to get away with murder, literally.

It's easy to condemn any individuals but the question is was there peer pressure among the 5 senior managers, did one or two of them control the narrative, if yes who?

Another interesting question for anyone to ask themselves, would you be willing to risk your job, reputation, income, home, family prospects, lifestyle, pension etc to raise a safeguarding concern? Or would you keep quiet and toe the line for an easy life?

But there wasn't sufficient evidence. There's a reason this case took 10 months, and many many days of jury deliberations.

She was found NOT guilty on two cases, and the jury was UNABLE TO DECIDE on six further counts. The judge even accepted majority verdicts because it was so difficult to get everyone on the jury to agree.

So, it was not clear cut.

Juries are fallible - they are not representative, it'll be full of people who have time to sit on a 10 month jury, not a cross-section of our society, they're not chosen for their ability to comprehend, to retain information, to concentrate, to think rationally and critically. It's a regular thing on mumsnet that people are shocked by the 'quality' of their fellow jurors if they are selected for jury duty. After 10 months there's a strong bias towards making an affirmative decision for the sake of it - if everyone has gone to such lengths, surely it means it must be true?

To me - and this is NOT making a judgment on whether Letby is guilty or not - this makes me a lot less confident in trusting the result. I'd be thinking this if the results were flipped too, with majority innocent and only a couple of guilty charges.

But making sweeping statements that things were clear cut is just clearly not true - otherwise this trial would have been wrapped up months ago and the jury would have been able to return results on all the charges.

Fortunately we know the judge and jury have indeed seen evidence we haven't. Months worth.

But there wasn't sufficient evidence. There's a reason this case took 10 months, and many many days of jury deliberations

you do realise the court case length was due to evidence being heard and then deliberated on by the jury? What the hell
do you think they were all doing during that time? Playing scrabble?

People are entitled to their own views of course but the uninformed shite that people come out with on here is ridiculous.

The only cases that the jury unanimously agreed on was the attempted murders of baby F and baby K (the insulin cases) and the murder of baby O. The other murder cases were agreed as majority verdict 10-1.

@BeenThereDoneThat101 I agree, it's very strange, several women on these thread "not convinced", "not proved to me" "haven't seen any real evidence", "will be overturned".

I think there really is a factor of "a young English, blonde, good looking, middle class (owned a house!) "normal""professional" could NEVER have done a terrible thing like that - even people agreeed that the nasty old male doctors were bullying her or blaming her for their failings!

I've said on other threads, I bet there would be much less of this hang wringing if the nurse had been an older BAME women, say come to the UK to work from overseas......

I was just thinking though that if some one is charged with murdering a lot of babies, it is very unlikely that they would be found not guilty.

If she was found not guilty, it would make a LOT of police look extremely stupid.

Juries are never totally independent thinkers, they are always influenced

I really don’t get all of this baying for blood about forcing her to take the stand and face the families etc. you can understand it from the families themselves, but from the general public it is just baying for blood, and revenge. Similarly the back combing over her life and room looking for signs of oddness is natural, but a bit - off, when taken to extremes.

The big question is why, now that she’s been found guilty and the evidence looks that way, why did she get away with it for so long? Concerns were raised. One nurse said it was a catchphrase among them, that if alarms went off people wondered if she was on duty.

I wonder if part at least is this issue of a young sociable woman being likeable and liked. There’s always been an element of needing to fit in to get jobs but imo it’s increased to ridiculous levels - enough that if you do ‘fit in’, you can’t be questioned, ever? Similarly if you’re not sociable and ‘likes’ it doesn’t matter what you do, you won’t get through the system. Something went very wrong.

I haven’t read every single post but just wanted to say how odd it is to see people claiming there is no overwhelming evidence. There is evidence that babies were murdered by injection of insulin and by physical assault. Lucy Letby was the ONLY person on shift for every single one of those murders. What other evidence do you need? Then add her disturbing behaviour towards the parents of the murdered babies and her searching them repeatedly online. I understand that people don’t want to believe a nurse could kill babies but this woman is undoubtedly guilty and has been found guilty by a jury. All of her colleagues, the consultants, the babies parents know she is guilty. I find it quite disrespectful to those babies and their families to be questioning her guilt and pedalling the false narrative that there was no evidence.

After 10 months there's a strong bias towards making an affirmative decision for the sake of it - if everyone has gone to such lengths, surely it means it must be true?

I understood the opposite to be true. That there would be more likely to be an acquittal. Of course there are issues with juries but really how many people are just going to go “fuck it” and convict knowing the consequences for her? Would you? I wouldnt and I don’t think anyone I know would

@Mooshamoo Oh so now the detectives in this case are corrupt?

Honestly, the little "Lucy" fan club on here are disturbed.

@WendysMouse

. "keep quiet for an easy life".

This is the key here.

I wonder what the protocol is for the hospital executives to not call the police in, overturning 7 consultants saying the deaths were unexplainable & dismissing their calls to have LL removed from the neonatal ward? Who ultimately is responsible for maintaining standards of patient safety? By not calling in the police - is this basically aiding & abetting a murderer? At the least, it surely must mean they’ve breached their contracts of patient safety standards & should be removed from subsequent posts. What makes them think they are above the law??