Page 3 | Lucy Letby guilty - part 2

twoandcooplease · 2023-08-19T00:47:10+00:00

Thread 1 Lucy Letby guilty http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4875009-lucy-letby-guilty Just in case anyone wants to keep the conversation going

Bobbybobbins · 19/08/2023 08:56

Zonder · 19/08/2023 06:34

I'm amazed at the number of pp saying they don't think there's enough evidence, or that the evidence doesn't seem conclusive, despite either posters pointing out we don't have access to the entire package of evidence given to the jurors over months.

I know mistakes can be made but it isn't likely given the months and volume of evidence here.

So true. I read there was something like 20, 000 pages of evidence for one child alone

usernother · 19/08/2023 08:56

I listened to the podcast about it from the start and think she is guilty. I think munchausens as well. I do feel sorry for her parents.

namechangeforprivate · 19/08/2023 08:58

Iserstatue · 19/08/2023 08:55

They called it 'fabricated induced illness' because that's the correct term.

Munchausens or MBP isn't a DSM diagnosis any more.

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I think that’s what made it more difficult - it was just viewed as a collection of things, a situation ? So things could be twisted or made up to fit the ‘FII model’ rather than some kind of test they could have done on me ! It was all cleared up in the end - but it was extremely difficult to get the genuine evidence (which was clear I was totally innocent) accepted.

I think that’s what made me a little wary about this case although I accept that a criminal investigation is much more thorough and they obviously had enough real evidence I think it’s just that little thing at the back of mind because I felt triggered by it all ?

Bobbybobbins · 19/08/2023 08:59

Orangebadger · 19/08/2023 08:26

I have followed this case since the start as I am a nurse. I struggled to get my head around it with each episode of the podcast.

I do think she is guilty though and we are unlikely to ever understand why. However one of my theories is that she actually did not intend to kill but to make these babies critically ill. She preferred looking after ITU babies, which is not wrong in itself. I know plenty of nurses that prefer working with critically ill patients. She tampered with their care to create more acuity, she enjoyed the drama, maybe a bit of a hero complex. When they died though, she seemed to equally enjoy consoling the parents and helping/ supporting other staff with their first neonatal death. It was like she was creating all the problems so people could see how good she was at dealing with them. Good in a crisis etc, basically hero worship.
So I am not convinced she initially set out to kill, but when babies did die she didn't stop. And tampering with their care regardless is attempted murder so just as bad. I may be totally wrong, but it's the only explanation that even slightly makes sense to me. I don't think she has any long term mental health problems, she has PTSD but this was after her investigation.

Totally agree with all this. A child was front and centre of her parents' world, the 'hero of her own story' etc

CloudyMcCloudy · 19/08/2023 08:59

Bobbybobbins · 19/08/2023 08:56

So true. I read there was something like 20, 000 pages of evidence for one child alone

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Agree. I don’t get the I can decide without seeing this in pp

Surely only those on the jury have access to full evidence

TooOldForThisNonsense · 19/08/2023 09:03

TooOldForThisNonsense · 19/08/2023 08:56

(a) it’s just not possible for the volume of evidence that there must have been to be fully reported . The reporters had to report on other stories as well. There would have been nothing but this news story on the news for months.
(b) it seems that there were some reporting restrictions. Presumably more important considerations at play eg avoiding prejudice to the accused, privacy, then every piece of evidence being made public
(c) if you were that invested you could have gone to sit in the public gallery and listened to the evidence in its entirety
(d) we don’t get to hear the entirety of the evidence in any case so why would we in this one?

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Also (e) if there has been a miscarriage of justice there are appeal mechanisms open to her.

But - I really don’t think she is innocent. I know it’s not evidence but her refusing to return to court is telling. She knows the game’s up and there’s no point keeping up the charade

Flapjacker48 · 19/08/2023 09:03

@WhisperingHi I'm sure "Lucy" will appreciate your views and sympathy when you pen a letter to her prison.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 19/08/2023 09:05

BackAgainstWall · 19/08/2023 08:10

The senior management involved have got blood on their hands and should be held to account and prosecuted.

But of course they won’t be will they.

They’ll carry on getting their obscenely high salaries or slope off and retire early on their extremely comfortable pensions.

The relevant senior management have retired or resigned. It's been in all of the press articles eg bbc.

KnickerlessParsons · 19/08/2023 09:06

Flute56 · 19/08/2023 06:56

I wouldnt be surprised if the nurse hangs herself in her cell because that would be the only option. I could not live if I had done what she had done. The flack she will get from other inmates nevermind outside if she was ever released would be too much to cope with and death would be the only solution.

"Flack" is a very nice way of putting it. I reckon she will have to be kept in isolation for her own safety.

itsgettingweird · 19/08/2023 09:12

Yes now this is where I find it strange. If I had started to notice patients deteriorating under one nurses care I would immediately think of competence and raise it this way. But in the interviews with the consultants they say they were suspicious intentional harm was been done quite early on. I doubt that very much. Really having a murderer in the department is the last thing anyone would think, you would think they are not safe to practise here and need their competence re assessed. Over a period of time you may think this was deliberate. But the way they word it in their interviews they are stating they knew she was doing deliberate harm after the 4th baby. I am not convinced tbh.

Completely agree.

Because if they did believe for even a second that it was deliberate they should have gone above managements head and reported to the police themselves.

I think it's very easy on cases dating back 8 years and with lots if reporting to have your own bias towards yourself in the situation.

I don't doubt they had concerns though. And the fact that no one felt able to escalate those concerns above managements heads is also concerning.

misspositivepants · 19/08/2023 09:18

I hadnt thought of the distinction between reporting for competency and concerns about murder. I wonder if the way it’s reported, one of the consultants is quoted as ‘no, not nice Lucy’ which led me down to believe they thought it to be intentional action by her.

I guess on some level, they wouldn’t want to believe that either.

JanieEyre · 19/08/2023 09:18

WhisperingHi · 19/08/2023 07:25

@Zonder if there's more evidence, then id like to see it. If like to know why it was reported on and I'd like to use my own brain to decide how I feel about it.

I appreciate other people have their own views about the case and her conviction and I respect that. Can you not do the same?

They invite the public into courts and report on proceedings because it's in the public's interest. Well, it's also in our interests to know that justice has been served correctly. Therefore ALL of the evidence should be made available and reporters should at least report the most significant evidence.

Therefore I'm struggling to see why pertinent information and evidence is still being kept from the public. Is it? Where is it?

There were tens of thousands of pages of evidence. How are you going to analyse all that, realistically?

More pertinently, how is someone going to go through it all redacting everything personal to the victims concerned and their families?

itsgettingweird · 19/08/2023 09:18

Flapjacker48 · 19/08/2023 08:52

I suspect unconscious and potentially conscious bias played a role how the hospital investigated the concerns and how staff who worked with her thought about the issues. If she had been a BAME nurse, potentially from a different country rather than a English, young, blonde, middle class, "sociable" women.

It's also odd that her father attended the meetings with Letby that did occur during the hospital's investigations, and as one of the hospital manager's said in court was pressing for the formal "apology" letter to her from the consultants. Of course, any parent would be angry if they thought an employer was being unfair to their child and making false accusations, but it would be exceptionally unusual in any NHS investigation or poor performance process for your other person not be a union rep and for someone to bring along a parent.

Yes - it's the father attending and demanding an apology that plays on my mind a lot.

But in a way that indicates they were either blind to her having anything but a perfect personality or they had witnessed difficulties and behaviours as she grew up and were so desperate to convinced themselves she was innocent they intervened. I often wonder if he considered for even a second she may be guilty?

Obviously NO parent on the planet wants to believe their child could commit these crimes. But I often wonder if at any point parents (who always know their child best) question the validity of the complaints and consider that may have an element of truth?

DSDaisy · 19/08/2023 09:19

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

CloudyMcCloudy · 19/08/2023 09:19

JanieEyre · 19/08/2023 09:18

There were tens of thousands of pages of evidence. How are you going to analyse all that, realistically?

More pertinently, how is someone going to go through it all redacting everything personal to the victims concerned and their families?

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It’s 10 months of evidence

How does anyone think they can access or assess that without the barristers and judge present too

JanieEyre · 19/08/2023 09:21

WhisperingHi · 19/08/2023 07:28

If Lucy only used insulin for 2/3 babies, to prevent suspicion. Does this mean it isn't suspicious that 2/3 babies had insulin in their blood work over that time?

Surely it works both ways. If it isn't suspicious to have insulin in a very small number of babies, then why is that the crux of this case?

If it is suspicious still, even in one baby, why wasn't an investigation done there and then and action taken?

Wasn't it missed at the time by a junior doctor? From what I understand, the significance is not so much the insulin but the absence of a companion substance that would be there if the body had produced it naturally, so it's quite subtle, especially in a tiny baby.

Iserstatue · 19/08/2023 09:22

namechangeforprivate · 19/08/2023 08:58

I think that’s what made it more difficult - it was just viewed as a collection of things, a situation ? So things could be twisted or made up to fit the ‘FII model’ rather than some kind of test they could have done on me ! It was all cleared up in the end - but it was extremely difficult to get the genuine evidence (which was clear I was totally innocent) accepted.

I think that’s what made me a little wary about this case although I accept that a criminal investigation is much more thorough and they obviously had enough real evidence I think it’s just that little thing at the back of mind because I felt triggered by it all ?

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I think you're right that this is a very different case.

I'm sorry you were falsely accused and I'm sure it's not any help to you to hear that whoever reported their suspicions likely felt that a child was at risk and was just doing their job.

It usually is just a collection of things that raises suspicions but those suspicions have to be reported. That applies to any kind of child abuse, it's usually a collection of things that authorities have to go on rather than direct witnessed evidence.

With you, there was a collection of things presumably relating to just one DC. With LL there's a collection of things relating to over a dozen so more compelling evidence.

I'm sorry for your experience.

Willmafrockfit · 19/08/2023 09:22

I just read Tony Chambers stepped down in June

Locutus2000 · 19/08/2023 09:25

Willmafrockfit · 19/08/2023 09:22

I just read Tony Chambers stepped down in June

He walked straight into another top job. And another. And another.

Bumblebee112 · 19/08/2023 09:26

A bit late to the discussions but I had to join in. A truly horrific case for all involved. I have followed from the start, although not as in depth as some of you.

I really hope that everyone - the families of the babies/the jury etc receive all the help they need after such a long trial. Serving on that during and hearing such huge amounts of medical evidence and awful details must have been incredibly difficult.

I’m not very clued up on the criminal justice system. Is there some kind of framework used to determine the sentencing?

Willmafrockfit · 19/08/2023 09:27

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/18/lucy-letby-hospital-boss-tony-chambers-million-pension/

there is a timeline here also, which is chilling.

namechangeforprivate · 19/08/2023 09:27

Iserstatue · 19/08/2023 09:22

I think you're right that this is a very different case.

I'm sorry you were falsely accused and I'm sure it's not any help to you to hear that whoever reported their suspicions likely felt that a child was at risk and was just doing their job.

It usually is just a collection of things that raises suspicions but those suspicions have to be reported. That applies to any kind of child abuse, it's usually a collection of things that authorities have to go on rather than direct witnessed evidence.

With you, there was a collection of things presumably relating to just one DC. With LL there's a collection of things relating to over a dozen so more compelling evidence.

I'm sorry for your experience.

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I think what has got to me if I’m honest is reading how this went for so long with real concerns and nothing done and for me it was quick and intense and yes rightly so if someone thought children were at risk . It was just the evidence issue I had (which ultimately I did manage to get heard but it was frustrating) then to read about this case it is triggering it’s almost like some people for whatever reason are above suspicion like she was for so long

TheWindyManTheLongMover · 19/08/2023 09:30

Despite the findings and recommendations of investigations like Mid Staffs, it remains incredibly difficult to have concerns taken seriously at work as an NHS employee. It disgusts and terrifies but, crucially, does not surprise me that the consultants' complaints were waved away. Imagine trying to whistle blow as a junior clinician, or - horror of horrors - a non-clinical colleague on little more than minimum wage. "Lessons learnt" my arse.

Offyoupoplove · 19/08/2023 09:30

Zonder · 19/08/2023 06:34

I'm amazed at the number of pp saying they don't think there's enough evidence, or that the evidence doesn't seem conclusive, despite either posters pointing out we don't have access to the entire package of evidence given to the jurors over months.

I know mistakes can be made but it isn't likely given the months and volume of evidence here.

I hope to God to the jury are right. The evidence that has been published and reported on leave significant room for doubt. If there is any reasonable doubt someone should be found not guilty. So I sincerely hope there is some smoking gun we aren’t aware of.

sleepyscientist · 19/08/2023 09:31

WhisperingHi · 19/08/2023 07:28

If Lucy only used insulin for 2/3 babies, to prevent suspicion. Does this mean it isn't suspicious that 2/3 babies had insulin in their blood work over that time?

Surely it works both ways. If it isn't suspicious to have insulin in a very small number of babies, then why is that the crux of this case?

If it is suspicious still, even in one baby, why wasn't an investigation done there and then and action taken?

High insulin in neonates can happen but without the corresponding rise in c-peptide it's not naturally occurring. They all missed the low c-pep.

The fact the consultants jumped up and down by this shows how essential it is that senior management are clinicians not traditional managers