Page 25 | Not only did Lucy Letby kill and badly hurt babies…

determinedtomakethiswork · 2023-08-18T21:23:02+00:00

She also prepared the memory boxes for parents of the dead children. Can you imagine having a memory box with photos and footprints of your dead child which had been taken by his or her merger? That goes way beyond the murder. I just don't know how the families are coping.

SomethingSmellsOffHere · 20/08/2023 17:12

I actually feel a bit sorry for him. I usually have zero sympathy for cheaters, if he did cheat on his wife, but his life is now destroyed.

Having an affair rumbled is one thing. It’s a whole other massive shit show if you had to give evidence as it turns out she’s a child killer. He will have lost everything, which doesn’t really seem fitting to his crime.

There are so many more people affected by her actions, not just those poor babies and their parents.

bluegreenandcoral · 20/08/2023 18:07

Interesting to read the comments about Lucy being a difficult birth and that some posters think it’s significant that she knew about that.

I know I was a difficult birth for my mother (crash c section under GA and when I was born I was very unwell). My parents have always been honest about it and I genuinely do not think that knowing this information has ‘damaged’ me in any way whatsoever. I would find it much more strange if they’d been secretive about it.

Iwasafool · 20/08/2023 18:19

bluegreenandcoral · 20/08/2023 18:07

Interesting to read the comments about Lucy being a difficult birth and that some posters think it’s significant that she knew about that.

I know I was a difficult birth for my mother (crash c section under GA and when I was born I was very unwell). My parents have always been honest about it and I genuinely do not think that knowing this information has ‘damaged’ me in any way whatsoever. I would find it much more strange if they’d been secretive about it.

I think maybe it is going into the ongoing problems the mother had that seems a bit much, could make the child feel responsible. I know someone whose mother died giving birth to him and he felt responsible which is crazy really as he had no say in being born but I think it has always been a burden to him.

I accept that dying and not being able to ride a bike are miles apart but hope you see what I mean.

Blueink · 20/08/2023 18:26

Flapjacker48 · 20/08/2023 13:58

@Blueink The court/judge/police etc have no power whatsoever to make her sit in the courtroom for sentencing.

It’s a shame this law change didn’t come in before now. Insulting the families further after putting them (and everyone else) through a gruelling court case, rather than own up when caught.

I hope the judge brings the full weight of the law down on her terms of incarceration.

LAHallucinations · 20/08/2023 18:35

OhComeOnFFS · 20/08/2023 17:07

I notice in the trial podcast that some staff are named and some aren't. I wondered whether that was in case she was found not guilty as then police might be looking at who else could be responsible.

What do you think?

It's explained here (you need to remove the paywall): https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/18/lucy-letby-court-trial-witnesses-granted-anonymity/

I agree with the arguments in that article. Witnesses shouldn't be allowed to keep their identity hidden, unless there's a threat to life.

Rare anonymity orders on Lucy Letby witnesses 'will have chilling effect on future cases'

Highly unusual reporting restrictions were imposed despite victims and families being widely named when the nurse was first charged

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/18/lucy-letby-court-trial-witnesses-granted-anonymity

Blueink · 20/08/2023 18:42

DrasticAction · 20/08/2023 08:58

@pickledandpuzzled interesting points re her birth defining her and being the man narrative story.

However I disagree on women not being able to share gruesome birth stories (not with young dc).
I don't think enough women do go into labour knowing what can go wrong and just how horrific the pain and issues can be.

I agree these things should be shared as they come up, as long as it’s done in an age appropriate and sensitive way.

It would have helped me to prepare for birth difficulties if I’d known about birth trauma. I had one session at an NHS antenatal class, where they discussed ventouse, forceps etc, which was the only useful information.

I am one of those who mentioned how story might have played into LLs narrative, but this is someone who is a cold blooded killer in my opinion, her warped motives are secondary and in some regards irrelevant.

CherryMojito · 20/08/2023 19:01

Jamtartforme · 20/08/2023 14:20

I know one person like LL in apparent personality and upbringing. She’s the centre of her parents universe, has been very sheltered in life and comes across as mentally immature and teenager-ish even though she’s 25. They go to Disneyland together, they also go to see bands like McBusted she loves little girl things and has a glittery Disney water bottle and stuff like that.

She’s also very selfish and capable of doing quite sly, malicious things. I’ve caught her lying about quite significant events and she does odd things when she feels the ‘grown ups’ around her aren’t showing her the attention she deserves.

It’s like she never grew out of her 8 year old self where she’s not really responsible for her actions and has fits of pique if the spotlight isn’t on her.

This is exactly what I was thinking about LL and the way that her parents have seemingly overprotected her. You have nailed it.

TheSkull · 20/08/2023 19:14

bluegreenandcoral · 20/08/2023 18:07

Interesting to read the comments about Lucy being a difficult birth and that some posters think it’s significant that she knew about that.

I know I was a difficult birth for my mother (crash c section under GA and when I was born I was very unwell). My parents have always been honest about it and I genuinely do not think that knowing this information has ‘damaged’ me in any way whatsoever. I would find it much more strange if they’d been secretive about it.

When I posted originally about the person I knew who had a difficult birth it was to say that she talked about it relentlessly to the daughter from a very young age. It wasn’t kind of something that was said then they moved on. It was brought up over and over. I’m not saying Letby’s mother did that because we don’t know do we but I always thought for the child to have to listen to what the mother went through and how she damaged her body wasn’t necessary. It was brought up at every birthday “it’s x years today that x happened to me’ Well hang on; it’s not about you, it’s your daughter’s birthday. Weird

ladyvivienne · 20/08/2023 19:15

Why on earth anyone would tell their child about a traumatic birth! You didn't die, they didn't die - that's it. The rest of it, you just get on with. I wouldn't dream of telling my two what's happened to me as a result of giving birth, that's not their responsibility to bear. It's the risk you took having children (giving birth is bloody dangerous)

pickledandpuzzled · 20/08/2023 19:18

@DrasticAction and @Blueink I don't disagree - but the dramatising can be unhelpful. I mean, telling me the neighbour nearly died because the baby's ear was stuck to her uterus...

Yes, we need to know birth injuries can happen, and that we need to be prepared for recovery and seek suitable treatment.

We don't need to pore over gory detail and be alarmist, imo.

And I don't think a difficult labour and birth are going to predicate a murderous adulthood, but if someone has a personality disorder or whatever they may well fixate on the drama that was their birth story, their own preciousness, fragility and importance.

I think they are 'made wrong' somehow, or broken, and their life story may trigger how that plays out.

If Lucy was over protected, cosseted, spoiled, told she was a miracle, practically perfect in every way ...

That's not to criticise the parents. Your average child isn't going to grow up like Lucy, however they are parented.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 20/08/2023 19:18

My DD had to know about about the problems with her birth as the first photos of her show thr marks on her, the state of and her siblings know that we were both in icu.

What children know isn’t the issue with things like this. It’s how and when they are told, and how it’s framed for them

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 20/08/2023 19:18

*the state of me

TheSkull · 20/08/2023 19:20

Honestly, this was mentioned at every opportunity. I have to say tho the mother was a self centred woman who loved to talk about herself

TheSkull · 20/08/2023 19:21

ladyvivienne · 20/08/2023 19:15

Why on earth anyone would tell their child about a traumatic birth! You didn't die, they didn't die - that's it. The rest of it, you just get on with. I wouldn't dream of telling my two what's happened to me as a result of giving birth, that's not their responsibility to bear. It's the risk you took having children (giving birth is bloody dangerous)

Exactly

TheSkull · 20/08/2023 19:23

@YetMoreNewBeginnings yes. How it’s framed. This was went hand in hand and on a par with every birthday the kid had. I think someone even made her a card (taking the piss) to commemorate the day on which she was so damaged

WorkSmarter · 20/08/2023 19:27

TetrapanaxRex · 18/08/2023 22:55

Dr Ravi Jayoram on Facebook -

Many of you are aware that due to the Lucy Letby trial, I have mostly been absent from social media over the last few months.

My heart goes out to the families of the babies affected by this although nothing can ever undo the evil that was inflicted on their children.

My colleagues and I have lived this for the last 8 years and the period of the trial has been the most difficult part of this. I am proud of all the frontline colleagues with whom I work, for managing to carry on providing excellent care to babies and children under such pressure.

There are bad people in all walks of life and many of them are very good at hiding in plain sight. There are also people in highly paid positions of responsibility in healthcare whose job it is to ensure patient safety. I am relieved that the often-maligned criminal justice system has worked properly this time. However, there are things that need to come out about why it took several months from concerns being raised to the top brass before any action was taken to protect babies, and why from that time it then took almost a year for those highly paid senior managers to allow the police to be involved.

The truth of what happened during that time will shock you to the core as it comes out. The safety of patients should come above any risk of reputational damage and sometimes the right decisions might be difficult and unpopular, but executive level managers are paid to do just that. There are people out there now, still earning six figure sums of tax-payers money or retired with their gold-plated pensions, who need to stand up in public to explain why they did not want to listen and do the right thing, to acknowledge that their actions potentially facilitated a mass-murderer and to apologise to the families involved in all of this. However, I suspect the response will be fudge and misinformation and it is now my mission moving forwards to make sure that they are held to account.

There is a long history of whistleblowers who raise concerns in the NHS not only being ignored but then being portrayed as the problem, sometimes to the point of their careers being destroyed. What happened here was history repeating itself but the patient safety issue that was ignored was beyond anything that the NHS has tried previously to cover up. There needs to be fundamental change in the culture and governance of NHS institutions and it should start right now.

Wow that's nearly all of our institutions rank at their core now.

I know someone who worked at The Christie Trust and tried to do their best for the patients but was bullied out because they were 'the problem'.

Protecting The Christie's reputation is top of their list, not patient safety unfortunately... Shocking.

Efacsen · 20/08/2023 20:50

Headline in the Guardian

Lucy Letby may have harmed dozens more babies, police fear

at the the Countess of Chester and Liverpool Womens Hospital

Blueink · 20/08/2023 21:12

ladyvivienne · 20/08/2023 19:15

Why on earth anyone would tell their child about a traumatic birth! You didn't die, they didn't die - that's it. The rest of it, you just get on with. I wouldn't dream of telling my two what's happened to me as a result of giving birth, that's not their responsibility to bear. It's the risk you took having children (giving birth is bloody dangerous)

There are various reasons why and times it could come up and be appropriate to answer questions and discuss their birth in an age appropriate and sensitive manner.

For example the child may have a birth injury, early photos show bruising from forceps and so on.

ladyvivienne · 20/08/2023 21:18

True. First one had a forceps delivery - there is a definitely circle round her head on her initial birth photos. She asked what it was, I said she got yanked out, all good fun. That's it. (it wasn't but she doesn't need to know that)

The gory stuff is not for you to put on your kids imo.

DrasticAction · 20/08/2023 21:34

@WorkSmarter thanks for the fb clip.

Could not agree more with him.

Efacsen · 20/08/2023 21:44

Every time I've seen the mug-shot photo of LL published on Friday I've been struck by the subtle asymmetry of her face which wasn't evident in previous un-posed photos

Perfect symmetry is rare - greater symmetry is often associated with a non-culture bound unconscious highly appreciated aesthetic sometimes of great beauty

Facial asymmetry tends to be associated with disease, ill-health incl SEMH, injury -including birth injuries and not being so 'beautiful'/attractive

Maybe every time LL looked in the mirror she would have seen the subtle consequences of her traumatic birth with or without anybody reminding her

AIstolemylunch · 20/08/2023 22:16

Are you saying she had brain damage from her birth? Seems unlikely if she completed a nursing degree.

I also noticed the unusual amount of asymmetry in her face though.

RedToothBrush · 20/08/2023 22:22

Efacsen · 20/08/2023 21:44

Every time I've seen the mug-shot photo of LL published on Friday I've been struck by the subtle asymmetry of her face which wasn't evident in previous un-posed photos

Perfect symmetry is rare - greater symmetry is often associated with a non-culture bound unconscious highly appreciated aesthetic sometimes of great beauty

Facial asymmetry tends to be associated with disease, ill-health incl SEMH, injury -including birth injuries and not being so 'beautiful'/attractive

Maybe every time LL looked in the mirror she would have seen the subtle consequences of her traumatic birth with or without anybody reminding her

Erm.

That's utter bollocks.

A quick double check on this reveals its bollocks in ten seconds.

Efacsen · 20/08/2023 22:23

RedToothBrush · 20/08/2023 22:22

Erm.

That's utter bollocks.

A quick double check on this reveals its bollocks in ten seconds.

Show quote history

Perhaps you'd like to tell me why?

Squidlette · 20/08/2023 22:25

Don't most of us have facial asymmetry?

Not to defend LL, but if we're going down the 'well, her face looks a bit odd' route, we're heading into Victorian methods of conviction. How about a nice bit of phrenology for good measure?