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Not only did Lucy Letby kill and badly hurt babies…

803 replies

determinedtomakethiswork · 18/08/2023 22:23

She also prepared the memory boxes for parents of the dead children. Can you imagine having a memory box with photos and footprints of your dead child which had been taken by his or her merger?

That goes way beyond the murder. I just don't know how the families are coping.

OP posts:
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28
ButterCrackers · 19/08/2023 23:11

GCWorkNightmare · 19/08/2023 22:44

She has bruising from the forceps in all of the first photos of her. She asked what that was at about 3. I said that she was so comfy in my tummy they had to force her out and they had to grab her to do it. There was some bruising and she had a headache and didn’t want to feed. She has dimples there when she smiles so the dents are pretty bloody obvious.

When she learned to ride a bike at about 5 and wanted me to go to I explained I couldn’t. When she was older I explained that I didn’t heal well after she was born and it is too sore for me to ride a bike. (It took well over 10 years to resolve with no help from the NHS who caused the issues.)

when she was about 7 and asked why she didn’t have siblings I said there were lots of reasons, several of which I can’t tell her, but one is that I can’t go through giving birth again.

can’t see what is so wrong with that. All have been prompted by her, delivered in an age appropriate way and with a heavy dose of how glad I am to have her. 🤷🏻‍♀️

we’ve both recently been diagnosed used with ADHD, which has strong links to forceps deliveries, which both of us were. I had mumps, measles and rubella as a child because forceps babies weren’t allowed to have the MMR. I knew from quite young about my birth. I’ve never so much as pulled the leg off a spider.

You told her the truth. You did so in a sensitive manner. There is everything right about this approach.

MumGMT · 19/08/2023 23:19

@C0NNIE

My relative had a normal happy childhood ( I know all his siblings ), was not neglected or abused. No adverse childhood events.

I'm convinced I know one too, and know the siblings and family etc. there was no abuse or adverse childhood events that I was aware of, but the same goes for your relative. He could have suffered some abuse etc. that you don't know about.

Nenanena · 19/08/2023 23:22

I think there are several stages to understanding how on earth this could have happened… the first is understanding her motivation. Some of the over-riding impressions I have of her are 1) an immaturity, a sense of her being ‘stuck’ (the bedroom, her possessions, her lack of intimate relationships, the ‘infatuation’ with the unobtainable colleague? something in the family dynamics?) 2) a need to play out, time and time again, a situation whereby those who are seen as incredibly precious (tiny babies) and those who are in a very unique and ‘special’ position (parents of vulnerable babies) are somehow punished and deprived (either of life itself, or of being able to take a healthy and much-wanted child home). So was it that her motivation was in order to relieve unbearable feelings linked to 1) - possibly intense jealousy, frustration, failure - she enacted 2) time and time again.

So the above would be her motivation, but that’s not enough to explain how and why such an extreme act - killing - was involved. So the final missing piece in my view, which meant she carried out the unthinkable, is that she had a genetic psychopathic tendency which meant that the usual safeguards most people have psychologically, weren’t there. If most healthy people realised that they felt quite jealous in some way of certain people, due to perceived failings or frustrations in their own life, they would not be driven to act so extremely, although they might in small (socially acceptable) ways find their way of coping. I think (in the way that psychopaths are shown to need to do) that she needed to do this in extreme ways in order to feel better.

To illustrate this a bit more, we are all capable of feelings (e.g. of intense anger) that at times means we temporarily feel like ‘killing someone’… but of course we can regulate this successfully and not literally do it! We might shout at someone or insult them under our breath, and that is enough of an outlet. The brains of people with psychopathy are shown not to respond in usual ways to typical social rewards, and they require something different in terms of input in order to experience the same kinds of emotions as healthy brains.

GCWorkNightmare · 19/08/2023 23:40

mathanxiety · 19/08/2023 22:52

I'm sorry you went through all of that.

However, I honestly think you could have answered her questions in general terms - "sometimes a doctor needs to help a baby out of a mummy's tummy by using tools called forceps and they can leave a mark, it happens quite a lot" / "I used to ride a bike when I was a little girl but the saddles they make for mummies are not very comfortable so I don't ride a bike any more" / "daddy and I decided not to have any more because our lives were lovely with just you".

It’s all been delivered very gently. I’m not sure why the truth should be hidden. She’s not at all phased by any of it. Maybe had the NHS not caused me PTSD and 10 years of extreme post-delivery pain I’d have been able to forget it more easily.

GCWorkNightmare · 19/08/2023 23:42

ButterCrackers · 19/08/2023 23:11

You told her the truth. You did so in a sensitive manner. There is everything right about this approach.

Thank you.

mathanxiety · 19/08/2023 23:44

I don't want to derail the thread, but I respectfully disagree.

Wishing you all the best in your struggle with PTSD Flowers

mathanxiety · 20/08/2023 00:08

@Nenanena - YY, I wondered about her room and the fact that she seemed so stuck. I read that she had complained of feeling her parents were suffocating her and feeling guilty for moving a few miles down the motorway.

nettie434 · 20/08/2023 00:17

@Nenanena I found your post very convincing. There is a difference between the way most people respond when things don't go their way. We might raise our voice but we know that isn't the right response. What happens when you don't have that regulator and believe you are justified and/or entitled to do something you know that society thinks is wrong?

I was interested to hear an American professor on LBC this morning talking to Matt Frei. She has written a book on women serial killers and said Lucy Letby fitted the profile perfectly, even down to her age, ethnicity and physical attractiveness.

Ichibum · 20/08/2023 00:36

Regarding her motives, handwritten notes were found in her home where she had scribbled "I don't deserve to live. I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them." She also wrote "I'll never have children or marry... I will never know what it's like to have a family... despair" which led experts like criminal psychiatrist, Sohom Das, to believe she was envious of the parents' lives and the happy families that they had. I feel she wanted and coveted what they had and so it made her feel powerful and in control to take it away from them. Dr. Das also thinks that when she got away with it after the complaints, it emboldened her to commit further heinous crimes.

I get a feeling that, although she had a normal and idyllic upbringing, her mum and dad have always been over-involved, possibly as she was their only child (not to say that all do). I've read that she has a great relationship with her parents, but it's almost as if they spoilt her and it affected her self-esteem as she apparently suffered from depression and anxiety. I don't think she has a mental illness, but definitely has several personality disorders, although it's hard to say if it's dissociative identity disorder (I can't believe how much her friend stood behind her in the documentary and refused to believe that she committed those crimes as well as the way her parents seemingly refuse to believe the charges brought against her), narcissistic personality disorder or borderline personality disorder.

Overall, it is just all so sick to think that taxpayers' money paid Tony Chambers for not doing his job and facilitating Letby's horrific crimes as well as paying for her time in prison. It's utterly heartbreaking what all of those affected have had to go through.

Things need to change.

mathanxiety · 20/08/2023 00:53

@nettie434 do you happen to remember the name of the author?

Blueink · 20/08/2023 01:05

I don’t feel as sorry for them as the families and children she had harmed but I agree it must be horrendous for her parents.

She’s a grown adult and they aren’t accountable for her. Even if she had the most awful background, so go many people and don’t go on to commit murders.

LL will have to live with the fact she is the only one who has put her parents through this with extreme and recurrently evil actions.

Her mother seems in complete denial despite having sat through months and layers of damning evidence.

LL obviously has no empathy though, even though she has been very good at feigning this.

The doctor she hoodwinked must cringe when he sees his text saying she is one of a few nurses he would trust with his children. She’s the one no-one can trust.

Paul2023 · 20/08/2023 01:29

Lucy Letbys parents have in a sense lost their only child. They will never in their life time see her free again. They will never spend another Christmas around a table with her. They will only ever see her in the confines of a prison.
And that is their daughters doing. She deserves the every year she’s going to get and more.

WeetabixTowels · 20/08/2023 01:35

I feel terribly sorry for her parents. Only on MN would people cast their child out the moment they are suspected of wrongdoingZ in the real world, most people would love their children to the end of their days, no matter what they did

WeetabixTowels · 20/08/2023 01:39

Just seen the panorama documentary.

It’s just all so…bizarre. We know serial killers don’t have a particular face but she’s so out of step with a typical serial killer. I’m finding how much that is influencing my view of her quite disturbing and I keep reminding myself that the evidence WASNT circumstantial when you read through it. There’s also no other explanation, person or circumstance.

I sobbed listening to the parents of the twins. I don’t know how they could ever find closure or peace knowing what happened to them

SammyScrounge · 20/08/2023 02:29

determinedtomakethiswork · 19/08/2023 17:41

She responded, yes, she would be happy'. I said, ''Would you be happy if something happened to any of the babies the following day?'' She said, ''Yes''.

This was a quote in the Daily Mail article, but I'm pretty certain the guy said on Panorama yesterday that the nursing director was asked will you take responsibility if anything happened… rather than would you be happy…

She did indeed say that. I'll be pleased to see her in court.
.

WeetabixTowels · 20/08/2023 02:37

SammyScrounge · 20/08/2023 02:29

She did indeed say that. I'll be pleased to see her in court.
.

She needs to put her money where her mouth is and face prosecution then

Princessfuckingpeach · 20/08/2023 03:02

I wonder how nobody got her outside of work if the staff all suspected.

Lucy letby is very fucking lucky she didn't have some unhinged freak colleague like me (or my sister who is much more explosive than i) or some of my other BPD friends around her, one of my BPD associates attacked a local man for CP images found because he had a suspended sentence, same girl found out someone she knew purposely and severely hurt a dog and simply knocked on this person's door and dragged them outside their home to assault them. This woman doesn't drink or do drugs, she's a fitness freak, but she's just not capable to seeing no justice for victims.
LL has ridden a wave of luck I hope will crash now and her life on earth is a devastating as it can be until she's in hell.

Not condoning violence btw, just shocked a baby killer was able to carry on when people knew.

Also not blaming anyone who didn't use vigilante behaviour BTW, absolutely not, again, just surprised.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 20/08/2023 03:05

Really? Who is responsible for letting killers out who then go on to kill again?

That isn't where the equivalence arises.

You have no credibility as a State when you declare yourself a civilised society in which killing people is unacceptable and enact laws accordingly, but then make exceptions and kill people convicted of killing others. It's either unacceptable or it is not. By making exceptions you completely undermine your own moral authority to make laws in the first place.

There is no credible argument for using Capital Punishment as a vindictive form of justice either. If you argue "what about the families of the victims?" then you must also recognise that in most instances, the perpetrators will also have families. In the particular case of Letby, there are already several grieving parents because of her actions. Execute Letby, and congratulations, you have just subjected yet another set of parents to the same thing she has.

tempgernard · 20/08/2023 03:08

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Yazzi · 20/08/2023 04:42

I'm still so shocked they didn't simply put CCTV focused on the humidicribs or cots. I know people have said it's privacy. But here in Aus during COVID some of the big hospitals put video livefeeds on babies cots in covid with the links only given to the parents, and this was seen as universally good thing, the parents were relieved. And where I live in the outback, all hospital cubicles have wide-view video cameras so specialist doctors in the city can instruct the medical and nursing staff present when someone has a tricky problem.

The footage on CCTVs loops out, and you can set that to happen quite quickly too. So if nothing of note occurs, the footage is erased forever in just days.

Even if it wasn't done in the thought that someone is murdering, surely it could have been helpful when baby after baby was dying, to have footage of these sudden declines so senior doctors could review any environmental factors.

It just, would have stopped it. She wouldn't have murdered on camera. So futile now. All these lives lost and such a simple preventative measure that wasn't taken.

Yazzi · 20/08/2023 05:07

Yazzi · 20/08/2023 04:42

I'm still so shocked they didn't simply put CCTV focused on the humidicribs or cots. I know people have said it's privacy. But here in Aus during COVID some of the big hospitals put video livefeeds on babies cots in covid with the links only given to the parents, and this was seen as universally good thing, the parents were relieved. And where I live in the outback, all hospital cubicles have wide-view video cameras so specialist doctors in the city can instruct the medical and nursing staff present when someone has a tricky problem.

The footage on CCTVs loops out, and you can set that to happen quite quickly too. So if nothing of note occurs, the footage is erased forever in just days.

Even if it wasn't done in the thought that someone is murdering, surely it could have been helpful when baby after baby was dying, to have footage of these sudden declines so senior doctors could review any environmental factors.

It just, would have stopped it. She wouldn't have murdered on camera. So futile now. All these lives lost and such a simple preventative measure that wasn't taken.

PS I say this as someone who had a child in NICU who I breastfed and pumped milk next to his cot for the whole of his stay, and am a Muslim who wears hijab.

If a hospital told me CCTV might help provide clues in why babies were deteriorating, I would have asked them to put it up yesterday.

JoyApple · 20/08/2023 07:02

Who is Lucy's father btw? He sounds like he is someone of great influence or well connected? (Freemason perhaps with the right connections?). Is it really a coincidence he was staying overnight the very night she was arrested?

From the guardian:

"Letby was arrested five months later, at 6am on 4 July 2018. Her father, John, had stayed the night, and watched as his daughter was led out of her three-bedroom house, where she lived alone with her two cats, Tigger and Smudge, in her nightie and a blue Lee Cooper tracksuit."

And:

"Brearey and his consultant colleagues were stunned. Not only was Letby being allowed to return to the unit, but the senior doctors were ordered to apologise to her for raising the concerns. Two consultants, Brearey and Dr Ravi Jayaram, were told to enter a mediation process with the nurse. Her father, they were told, had threatened to refer them to the General Medical Council unless they withdrew their allegations and welcomed her back.

Faced with the threat of disciplinary action, the doctors sent Letby a carefully worded apology on 28 February 2017."

JoyApple · 20/08/2023 07:13

C0NNIE · 19/08/2023 22:54

I have a close relative who I believe is a sociopath if not a psychopath. I mean in the “ ruthless businessman “ mode rather than the serial killer. he has done lots of things that most poeple woudo think were deeply immoral but not illegal. I know he has committed criminal offence, but they are of the type that many people think are “ mot really wrong “, like tax and benefit fraud.

I can see some similarities in how he acts and what is reported about Lucy Letby. For expample

he has absolutely no empathy at all, he is completely detached from anyone else’s emotions if they get in the way of him achieving his goals

he is very charming and plausible , you would all like him if you met him, you wouldn’t believe anything I could tell you about him.

He is the most plausible liar in the world. I have been is situations where I have seen something happen right in front of me, he later denies it ever happened and I wish I had recorded it because I doubt my own memory.

he is a very happy person because he is not troubled by self doubt or guilt. He treats other people appallingly and walks away without a second thought. He has none of the uncomfortable feelings that the rest of us have when he treat someone else badly. So in many ways he is happier that other people , he has no regrets.

If you asks him if he did some ( objectively bad ) thing , he won’t say yes or no. He will say “ my conscience is clear “. And I believe him . It’s not that he doesn’t know that, for example, ripping off his employees is wrong. He knows that other people think it’s wrong so that’s why he hides it. But he has a good enough ( in his head ) reason to do it so its not wrong FOR HIM.

So if you confronted him about the morality or legality of what he has done, he would say “ But you don’t understand, you know nothing about running a company “. Not “ I don’t care “ or “ Fuck you “. Which is what people think a sociopath would say.

He would tell himself that you are so stupid you don’t understand business, you are not as intelligent, sophisticated or worldly as him, that the situation is complicated and not black and white as you make out .

That ways he gets to believe that he is a Good Person and others are idiots. It’s very important to him that he is a good man .

He is completely unable to take any responsibility for his own actions. If he is ever confronted he will attack and deflect .

He doesn’t get stressed the way other people would, that makes him excellent at some aspect of his job, he is calm when others are not, he is icy calm in a crisis.

He has an insatiable need for attention and will make every situation about him eg someone else’s birthdays or graduation, the funeral of someone he is not close to.

if Lucy is the same kind of psychopath that he is , then I can see why the Director of Nursing at the trust would assume that she was innocent, if she is an expert and plausible liar. People foolishly think they can tell if someone is lying - they can’t with an expert because they don’t believe in some ways that they are lying.

If Lucy was calm-in a crisis , that would help her in her job, it’s a good quality in a nurse.

If she didn’t have feelings of sadness or guilt, that would enable her to make up memory boxes for the bereaved families, without the feelings of sadness that some other nurse on the ward else might have.

She could have been looking up the brief families on Facebook because she wanted to discover how normal people behave when faced with such a terrible loss. She might be aware that she needed to learn the appropriate things to say and do at such a time. it’s not the same as gloating.

Lucy might feel that she is cleverer than the police and take pleasure in outsmarting them. She might feel that they are lay people who don’t understand the complexities of neo natal medicine.

She might enjoy getting all the sympathy and attention from colleagues when a baby died, making it about her and not the parents.

My relative had a normal happy childhood ( I know all his siblings ), was not neglected or abused. No adverse childhood events. lots of broken marriages of course as you’d expect , but that’s effect not cause.

He was not the neglected kid with the alcoholic father who killed his pets, got expelled from school at 15 and ended up in prison at 20 for stabbing someone who looked at him the wrong way in a pub. That’s a different type of sociopath.

This was very interesting.

From all the people I know closely, there is one person (ex-friend) who fits some of what you've described. If someone told me she had done something like this, I wouldn't be too surprised. Everything is about her and her personal needs, and she will trample on others along the way and has to be the hero and center of attention. The complete absence of empathy is very jarring, especially in a woman.

LizzieSiddal · 20/08/2023 07:34

@Yazzi i agree with you. Plus I remember huge arguments against police officers wearing body cams when that was first suggested. I doubt anyone would think anything but good now about it. (Apart from law breaking police officers).

Plus if BFing mums do need privacy there would be a way of facilitating that.

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