Not only did Lucy Letby kill and badly hurt babies…

[determinedtomakethiswork]

She also prepared the memory boxes for parents of the dead children. Can you imagine having a memory box with photos and footprints of your dead child which had been taken by his or her merger?

That goes way beyond the murder. I just don't know how the families are coping.

Don't want in any way to derail this thread but did anyone else watch Dr Death in the USA. Similar cover ups and lack of accountability

Some people are born with the predisposition

Very true- I find that strange too.I mean protecting children's lives is worth even losing your job over!

fully understand the feeling of vengefulness, but let's please remember that people go to prison as punishment, not for punishment.

Britinme I don’t understand what ‘go to prison as punishment, not for punishment’, means - unless it’s a typo which I haven’t spotted.

She has the same motivation as every other serial killer: she enjoys killing. Women don't generally go and attack victims in the street or abduct them asTed Bundy or the Yorkshire Ripper did as they generally aren't physically strong enough. They require weaker victims : the very old or the very young.
Serial killers often keep trophies - she had many of the victims' hospital documents to remind her of her finrst.hours; she kept in touch with parents to.relish their pain and savour her power to make them suffer.
As for no one seeing there was something wrong with Letby, again she's like other killers. Wasn't the Yorkshire Ripper considered an obliging considerate man before he was found out? Wasn't Bundy chaming and clever and handsome? Just as Letby was considered hardworking and devoted to parents and children?
For the men, their killings gave them a sexual thrill. Did she experience that? Certainly.she shows every sign of enjoyment in hers and a lingering pleasure.in reliving them.
She's cunning. I wonder if her 'I am evil' diary entries are a preparation defence in case she
got caught? Maybe too far a stretch to say but it's possible.
To return to motivation -.the babies really suffered pain and distress. Why isn't she just
classed as a sadist? She knew the extent of their pain but persevered. Was the varied method of killing -air, insulin, milk - her way of experimenting to find the most agonising death for those babies?
She is merely a sadist, like the men, enjoying
Death and suffering.

No I phrased it deliberately. Being in prison is punishment. It doesn't need to have venge-fuelled ideas heaped on top of it. I understand why some people would be in favour of the death penalty for crimes such as this, though I don't agree.

Ah, ok. Thank you

It is not difficult or impossible to sack anyone - in any job at any level, in any organisation. You simply have to have a strong management structure that stick to the policies of the organisation-which in themselves should meet employment law. That means all policies- the detail in policies is what makes it problematic. Unless you have good HR who check policies are actually being used effectively daily to work with and manage staff, you reach a point where sacking becomes problematic- usually because the organisation has not followed its own policies. Middle managers hate following policies to manage their staff because it involves monitoring, recording, target-setting, to deadlines and awkward conversations- most would rather not do those things.Staff hate following policies because they see it as 'being checked up on' and are insulted at the notion. Senior managers are usually little better. When the shit hits the fan and the questions are asked:
Has the member of staff been made aware of the concerns about their performance by their manager?
Have the issues been clearly identified in writing following a meeting?
Have they been put on an informal support plan with clear areas for improvement, targets, time frames, and support in place?
Have they been put on a formal support plan with the same structures?
Was it reviewed and adjusted as necessary?
Was were the outcomes of this work?
Can I see all of that paperwork please and your record of the conversations?

In 99 cases out of a hundred the answer will be 'No' from the Middle Manager. No they haven't followed the policies for capability, attendance, whatever. At that point the organisation has to start at the beginning. A wily staff member knows this and starts complaining about lack of support, stress, worry, involves a union rep who immediately points to the lack of use of a policy and the whole process, which should be 6 months to a year down the line, starts at the beginning.

It is the job of senior managers to make sure policies are clear to staff, that they understand them and see they are used in practice, and that middle mangers and they themselves follow those policies to the dot. They should be trained to do so. If you do, it is rare for a dismissal to be challenged - it should never be a surprise. It should usually- unless it is a result of an instance of gross misconduct- be the end of a procedure .

Lucy Letby should have been more carefully monitored and line managed from the beginning. I suspect it NEVER happened, even as a new nurse. She was left to get on with the job with excuses like- overwork and short-staffed used as excuses by middle management.

Yes, great that the consultants spoke up but they took too long and more children died because of that. Where was the nursing team in all of this- the ward sister (or whatever they are called these days), her line manager, the 'matron'? Properly managed they should all have been involved before it reached the point it did. It feels like these teams at the hospital did not work together making sure the quality of staff was always about improvement.

The hospital executive management sound an absolutely disgusting bunch- they should have their huge pensions removed and be banned from working in any public service again.

Robert Black is a fine example of this.

amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/15/lucy-letby-nurse-accused-of-killing-babies-entered-grand-national-on-day-of-attempted

This puts the Grand National texts into context.

Citation needed on that, there was a heavily political influenced instant recently, but it wasn't because our prisons are considered 'unacceptably bad' with regards to Germany..

You missed the point.
People want her to be punished further, in tougher ways than they do in the UK.

I don’t know if anyone follows True Crime Rocket Science but it looks like he has just put a you tube video out on Lucy Letby ,Why did she do it ? I always find his findings and thoughts very insightful so I am off to watch it .

It means that having their liberty taken away by being sent to prison is the punishment. The environment of the prison is not supposed to be so awful that it is punishing.

She was sane looking, presentable, respectable, attractive, a professional that signs passport applications.
Vile people like this among us, look how many were jubilant about lockdowns and economy, society and people's health being destroyed and were begging for more. They had slightly better impulse control perhaps.

Indeed 😡

I absolutely agree about her parents. It will be really hard for them to acceot what she has done if they ever do. I don't think they can be blamed in any way. But I wonder if they suspected she was a bit 'odd'. Surely she must have a severe personality disorder to make her capable of such evil. Not that that would be any excuse. Its one of these things we just wont understand why somebody could do such things.

I think the ONLY way we can learn from this is if there is some kind of system in place where more than one complaint of this nature triggers an immediate investigation.

I think you will get into a tail spin, in this situation it looks like LL has played the game and cried bullying

Lucy Letby should have been more carefully monitored and line managed from the beginning. I suspect it NEVER happened, even as a new nurse. She was left to get on with the job with excuses like- overwork and short-staffed used as excuses by middle management.

In the NHS those are reasons, not excuses. Qualified nurses are expected to get on with it because there’s no choice.

Yes, great that the consultants spoke up but they took too long and more children died because of that. Where was the nursing team in all of this- the ward sister (or whatever they are called these days), her line manager, the 'matron'?

It’s difficult to see how much faster the consultants could have spoken up. They did so as soon as the first deaths occurred They started in June 2015
and there were three neonatal deaths this month, consultants told the trial they noticed an “association” with Letby being on shift. They told the director of nursing.

It’s pretty obvious you work in a corporate, well staffed environment that bears no comparison with the current chaotic underfunded, understaffed NHS.

So you're equating the actions of Lucy Letby to a bunch shit you've just made up about people who might just disagree with you about how COVID was managed?

FFS.

I think this is the most likely scenario, coupled with some kind personality disorder.

if this is the case it would be like a game, a naive childlike fantasy with her at the centre which would explain a lot regarding her as a person.

She has bruising from the forceps in all of the first photos of her. She asked what that was at about 3. I said that she was so comfy in my tummy they had to force her out and they had to grab her to do it. There was some bruising and she had a headache and didn’t want to feed. She has dimples there when she smiles so the dents are pretty bloody obvious.

When she learned to ride a bike at about 5 and wanted me to go to I explained I couldn’t. When she was older I explained that I didn’t heal well after she was born and it is too sore for me to ride a bike. (It took well over 10 years to resolve with no help from the NHS who caused the issues.)

when she was about 7 and asked why she didn’t have siblings I said there were lots of reasons, several of which I can’t tell her, but one is that I can’t go through giving birth again.

can’t see what is so wrong with that. All have been prompted by her, delivered in an age appropriate way and with a heavy dose of how glad I am to have her. 🤷🏻‍♀️

we’ve both recently been diagnosed used with ADHD, which has strong links to forceps deliveries, which both of us were. I had mumps, measles and rubella as a child because forceps babies weren’t allowed to have the MMR. I knew from quite young about my birth. I’ve never so much as pulled the leg off a spider.

I'm sorry you went through all of that.

However, I honestly think you could have answered her questions in general terms - "sometimes a doctor needs to help a baby out of a mummy's tummy by using tools called forceps and they can leave a mark, it happens quite a lot" / "I used to ride a bike when I was a little girl but the saddles they make for mummies are not very comfortable so I don't ride a bike any more" / "daddy and I decided not to have any more because our lives were lovely with just you".

I have a close relative who I believe is a sociopath if not a psychopath. I mean in the “ ruthless businessman “ mode rather than the serial killer. he has done lots of things that most poeple woudo think were deeply immoral but not illegal. I know he has committed criminal offence, but they are of the type that many people think are “ mot really wrong “, like tax and benefit fraud.

I can see some similarities in how he acts and what is reported about Lucy Letby. For expample

he has absolutely no empathy at all, he is completely detached from anyone else’s emotions if they get in the way of him achieving his goals

he is very charming and plausible , you would all like him if you met him, you wouldn’t believe anything I could tell you about him.

He is the most plausible liar in the world. I have been is situations where I have seen something happen right in front of me, he later denies it ever happened and I wish I had recorded it because I doubt my own memory.

he is a very happy person because he is not troubled by self doubt or guilt. He treats other people appallingly and walks away without a second thought. He has none of the uncomfortable feelings that the rest of us have when he treat someone else badly. So in many ways he is happier that other people , he has no regrets.

If you asks him if he did some ( objectively bad ) thing , he won’t say yes or no. He will say “ my conscience is clear “. And I believe him . It’s not that he doesn’t know that, for example, ripping off his employees is wrong. He knows that other people think it’s wrong so that’s why he hides it. But he has a good enough ( in his head ) reason to do it so its not wrong FOR HIM.

So if you confronted him about the morality or legality of what he has done, he would say “ But you don’t understand, you know nothing about running a company “. Not “ I don’t care “ or “ Fuck you “. Which is what people think a sociopath would say.

He would tell himself that you are so stupid you don’t understand business, you are not as intelligent, sophisticated or worldly as him, that the situation is complicated and not black and white as you make out .

That ways he gets to believe that he is a Good Person and others are idiots. It’s very important to him that he is a good man .

He is completely unable to take any responsibility for his own actions. If he is ever confronted he will attack and deflect .

He doesn’t get stressed the way other people would, that makes him excellent at some aspect of his job, he is calm when others are not, he is icy calm in a crisis.

He has an insatiable need for attention and will make every situation about him eg someone else’s birthdays or graduation, the funeral of someone he is not close to.

if Lucy is the same kind of psychopath that he is , then I can see why the Director of Nursing at the trust would assume that she was innocent, if she is an expert and plausible liar. People foolishly think they can tell if someone is lying - they can’t with an expert because they don’t believe in some ways that they are lying.

If Lucy was calm-in a crisis , that would help her in her job, it’s a good quality in a nurse.

If she didn’t have feelings of sadness or guilt, that would enable her to make up memory boxes for the bereaved families, without the feelings of sadness that some other nurse on the ward else might have.

She could have been looking up the brief families on Facebook because she wanted to discover how normal people behave when faced with such a terrible loss. She might be aware that she needed to learn the appropriate things to say and do at such a time. it’s not the same as gloating.

Lucy might feel that she is cleverer than the police and take pleasure in outsmarting them. She might feel that they are lay people who don’t understand the complexities of neo natal medicine.

She might enjoy getting all the sympathy and attention from colleagues when a baby died, making it about her and not the parents.

My relative had a normal happy childhood ( I know all his siblings ), was not neglected or abused. No adverse childhood events. lots of broken marriages of course as you’d expect , but that’s effect not cause.

He was not the neglected kid with the alcoholic father who killed his pets, got expelled from school at 15 and ended up in prison at 20 for stabbing someone who looked at him the wrong way in a pub. That’s a different type of sociopath.