Not only did Lucy Letby kill and badly hurt babies…

[determinedtomakethiswork]

She also prepared the memory boxes for parents of the dead children. Can you imagine having a memory box with photos and footprints of your dead child which had been taken by his or her merger?

That goes way beyond the murder. I just don't know how the families are coping.

For people who don't want to watch the programme, BBC News has a summary covering the main points:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66120934

I also think the first death was an accident and I don't think this death was it. I think she probably got a lot of attention from the first and this spurred her on to more killings. Like Shipman, if they go back there will likely be other deaths.

I would put the managers alongside her in prison , they are as culpable after concerns were raised .

That’s how I understood your post - that you were saying what she might have thought. But to me, that’s making excuses for her and I don’t see any evidence to suggest that. IMO, you’re falling back on this idea because you can’t contemplate that some people do very bad things and don’t do them ‘by mistake’ or because of a touch of misjudgement but on purpose.

@Pollyputhekettleon Also, all behaviours including violence are partly genetic.

Eh? What utter nonsense! I don’t think I’ve ever read anything so stupid.

I agree with @Pollyputhekettleon - addiction runs in families, for example. Remember when people used to say "oh, he's got his dad's temper" and things like that? Well sometimes he really does have his dad's temper. ADHD is known to run in families now, as is ASD.

Some behaviours are learned - good manners, bad manners, even says of thinking - attitudes to women etc, but there is a great deal that is inherited.

The serial killer should get a very very long time in prison. I really hope she doesn’t end up in hospital

I'm not that poster but they're not wrong. Look up the numerous studies about genetics and violence and aggression.

You agree that all behaviours of violence are partly genetic?
Also why would you compare violent behaviour with ASD and ADHD?

Such a complicated case.

I do wonder if it was a case of a bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. She was trained in edge of life stuff, how tiny amounts of the wrong drug could have a catastrophic effect. And I wonder of one day she tested that theory. And the adrenaline and sympathy she got as well as the lack of suspicion made her bolder and made her crave that attention. Until eventually she was an out and out killer. That with that first death came the chance to place her self at the centre of a tragedy, receive cards telling her how wonderful she was, how grateful the parents were. Then she got to bathe the babies, dress them, take photos and hand prints. Become instrumental in a family's journey.

The she also discovered that the doctor seemed to be flirting with her. What better way to get to see him than getting him paged to the emergency and then working together: he obviously thought she was a good nurse. Perhaps she performed well in these circumstances and that 'praise' was warranted. But she had to engineer these situations, and so she did.

What she didn't do, was think about the actual lives she was taking or the lives she was damaging. It was all about her. What she wanted, what she needed, what she got out of it.

I also wonder if she thought (in the way narcissistic people do) that she was cleverer than everyone else. There was a suggestion that one of the reasons she talked to the police was to see what evidence they had on her, because she thought she'd been so clever that they had nothing. And in some senses she was right. There was no DNA, like there could be in other murder cases. Very little forensic evidence. Lots of circumstantial evidence, but of course there would be! She was there, everyone knew that. She worked on the babies, trying to save their lives. Full on hiding in plain sight.

The notes suggest she eventually became conflicted about what she was doing. Like a drug addict that doesn't want to be a drug addict, swears to themselves they won't have the next hit, that they hate themselves for being so weak, that they will beat the addiction with willpower. But of course they don't. And then the cycle starts over. It would be akin to a drug addict working in a pharmacy. Every time you go to work you have multiple opportunities to take those drugs, and you need that hit, and you take that drug. And it works. You feel better, until it all wears off and you realise again that you're weak. And you hate yourself for it. Eventually you lie to yourself. Convince yourself of an alternate truth. Convince yourself that these babies would have died anyway. Some absurd internal struggle. Again, all about her. And I'd bet she's convinced herself that she's innocent. Helped by the fact the hospital management acted the way they did, making the doctors apologise to her.

And even now, it's all about her.

Not RTFT but just wanted to comment re why the doctors didn’t do more/go to the police (something I’m sure they’ll all regret/won’t get over). I’ve commented similar on other threads but I really think the public need a better understanding of the GMC and why it’s not fit for purpose.

The whistleblowing consultants were threatened with a GMC referral. It’s clear from who has spoken out publicly that at least some of the doctors are BAME. The GMC has been found to be institutionally racist by the courts. There’s a low level of trust in the GMC from the profession in general but many of my BAME colleagues are (rightly) convinced that they would not get a fair hearing (and to make matters worse we pay 100s of pounds a year to the GMC for the privilege). It’s an entirely different ballgame of case but google Dr Arora for an example of how vindictive the GMC can be. The suicide rates for doctors under investigation are shocking. I’ve read somewhere that the mortality of a GMC referral is the same as open heart surgery. The GMC is a very easy way for corrupt trusts to bully whistleblowing doctors into staying quiet.

Besides, even if the consultants go directly to the police (and as paediatricians they likely know the local force relatively well due to child protection medical etc) what would happen? The police talk to the management who say this is a known problem of a group of doctors bullying a nurse. The clinical director has already investigated and found no evidence. The doctors have already apologised and we’re considering referral to the GMC. What overworked police force is going to have the time or justification to peruse it further?

Didn't her friend mention her ' difficult birth and recovery' , I had a couple of very difficult births and neither children are aware of all the details, why would they be ?

@Salacia I completely agree. A wonderful doctor who treated me was absolutely hounded by the GMC to an early grave, entirely in malice and without grounding.

This is a landmark case so I Understand them prioritising it.

Reading this thread and others makes it clear that people are somewhat traumatised by this case and trying to get our heads round it; giving the public the opportunity to learn as much as they can about it is a public service imo.

I actually disagree when people say that most criminals who do monsterous things look just like everybody else. Obviously sometimes that’s the case. But loads of these offenders look dead in their eyes - they don’t look “normal” imh. Also, there’s often many other clues in their behaviours and everyday life that suggest their deviancy.

As someone said earlier in relation to Wayne Couzens. His colleagues called him the rapist, he exposed himself to women several times, and quite frankly he looks like a thug.

Other child murderers often have a history of watching child pornography or other crimes.

I think what’s interesting with LL is that non of her behaviour seems to have hinted that’s she was being capable of such crimes. I think we’re all so horrified that she could do such horrendous acts because she’s a woman. Maybe women like this are able to compartmentalise their crimes in a way that men can’t?

My thoughts are with all those poor babies families and the doctors that blew the whistle and weren’t listened to.

I can't relate to people killing babies on purpose, you're right. Was very curious about motives. So maybe from an insensitive view I am thinking out loud. Apologies if I've upset anyone.
My first question was why? In the words of the parents they will never know. And maybe trying to understand it is a waste of time?
And then moved on to systemic failures in the case. And the way that health workers in particular see death and suffering every day, and still function. So must compartmentalize, to carry on.

@Iserstatue I'm not that poster but they're not wrong. Look up the numerous studies about genetics and violence and aggression.

And just look at the numerous studies about environment and violence and aggression. There is huge debate around Nature/Nurture and I was specifically responding to @Pollyputhekettleon comment “Also, all behaviours including violence are partly genetic.”

It is NOT true to say that “ALL behaviours are partly genetic”.

Thank you.

i was pondering that and it didn’t quite add up to me. So thanks for your post.

https://www.jax.org/news-and-insights/jax-blog/2015/December/the-genetics-of-violent-behavior#:~:text=Based%20on%20a%20large%20number,of%20violent%20behavior%20and%20delinquency.

I suppose that “deadness” is disassociation? Letby seemed like that after being arrested and questioned. Perhaps someone with more knowledge will come on to the thread and be able to explain disassociation in more depth.

The actual live court reports do. I followed some of the trial ( not all as it was so long).
The reporting is more like minutes of a meeting, rather than a reporters view.

Lucy was an only child, and maybe she was told about this as an explanation for why she was.

@Ohyousillydivvy The study you’ve posted says that 50% can be attributed to genetics. That is NOT “all” which is what @Pollyputhekettleon stated what I was disputing.

It reminds me very much of Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos. And how she was able to fool so many for so long.

Those poor families. Absolutely heartbreaking.

I still can’t quite get my head around this tbh. It makes you question everything, never really knowing someone and what they’re capable of.

The photo used of LL holding a baby grow. How! How did she go from this to murder. I didn’t want to believe it was true, she looked so ‘caring’ big eyes, wide smile and a nurse.

My mind keeps going back and forward to ‘how could she’ to ‘can this really be true, have they really got this right’? Just processing it I suppose.