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Original poster

Not only did Lucy Letby kill and badly hurt babies…

803 replies

determinedtomakethiswork · 18/08/2023 22:23

She also prepared the memory boxes for parents of the dead children. Can you imagine having a memory box with photos and footprints of your dead child which had been taken by his or her merger?

That goes way beyond the murder. I just don't know how the families are coping.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
LizzieSiddal · 19/08/2023 08:30

I too disagree with “dragging them up to the court”.
What do you do, get them into a straight jacket and carry them up? That would take hours and need specially trained staff. And then of course you’d need some kind of implement to stop them biting the staff. All while the judge, jury and public gallery are sitting around waiting…. and the guilty murderer would be absolutely loving all the attention and drama they were causing.

nettie434 · 19/08/2023 08:30

Nevermay · 18/08/2023 22:36

what I don't understand is how her parents could have brought her up to the age of 18 without realising that there was something seriously wrong, and that she needed to be prevented from becoming a nurse.

How can she have hidden what she was capable of, from being a tiny child upwards?

Yes, it's striking that she had such a very ordinary 'normal' upbringing. There is a bit in this report that her parents threatened to report the doctors who complained about her to the GMC:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/19/doctors-were-forced-to-apologise-for-raising-alarm-over-lucy-letby-and-baby-deaths

I wonder if the parents, like the friends interviewed on Panorama still believe she is innocent.

Doctors were forced to apologise for raising alarm over Lucy Letby and baby deaths

Guardian investigation also reveals Countess of Chester hospital executive feared contacting police would ‘damage reputation’

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/19/doctors-were-forced-to-apologise-for-raising-alarm-over-lucy-letby-and-baby-deaths

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/08/2023 08:33

LizzieSiddal · 19/08/2023 08:00

Re the childhood of Letby, I was listening to R4 news programme yesterday and a criminal psychologist who works in high security prisons, said she’d never met a murderer who hadn’t had a violent and abusive childhood. I was quite shocked that she could say something like that, my first thought was how does she know these murders are all telling the truth?

In many cases there are records of it. Medical records, reports to social care, testimony from siblings, grandparents etc. Also, all behaviours including violence are partly genetic. So a violent person is far more likely than a nonviolent person to have had violent parents. That would be true even if they had been adopted at birth into a nonviolent family. A criminal psychologist would hopefully be aware of that. So it's not unreasonable to start from an assumption that such claims are likely to be true. That's probably especially the case when you're talking about murder, which is the most extreme form of violence.

Ridemeginger · 19/08/2023 08:33

There were 22 charges heard over a 10 month trial, and the verdicts came in over a number of days, as the jury deliberated each charge’s evidence separately and came to separate conclusions. Taking 2 weeks to do that seems pretty normal to me.

Listening to the Newscast podcast, LL was only in court for the first 2 verdicts, as were her parents, but neither appeared for the following verdicts, nor will they be present at sentencing (on Monday, I think they said).

Hungrycaterpillarsmummy · 19/08/2023 08:33

There was a question on yougov recently about opinions on bringing the death penalty back and I think it was raised due to this case.

StopStartStop · 19/08/2023 08:34

Either she grew up profoundly evil or she changed and became profoundly evil,

No, not the case.

What Lucy Letby did was terrible. She did it because she had the opportunity, based on her role and knowledge. Presumably she enjoyed the feeling of power it gave her. Making the memory boxes would add to that. If she'd never had those opportunities, she might not have acted out any murderous behaviour.

When we call someone 'evil' we absolve the human race of responsibility for that person. She isn't like us. We have no potential to do that. She is evil.

Evil does not exist. Behaviour we describe as evil does exist, but evil isn't an entity on its own, hanging around waiting to affect people.

The awful things that LL did are awful things that are potentially done by people. Some of those people will show indications of their likely future behaviour - they might hurt animals, for example. Some won't show any indications at all.

Paul2023 · 19/08/2023 08:35

But how can her family and friends still believe she’s innocent? What about her notes she wrote ?

Marmite17 · 19/08/2023 08:37

BreatheAndFocus · 19/08/2023 08:29

She’s a wicked, heartless person. The suggestion that the first death was an accident and that the others were because she was bullied and/or stressed is ridiculous! She injected air into the bloodstream of the first baby - that was no accident!

As for this:

I can’t comprehend why anyone would deliberately take the action of injecting a baby with insulin, possibly started as wishing for a pleasant death?
More in keeping for the cats she loved? I really hope that, if anything good could come of this, health workers are given down time and support, and hospital administrators held more accountable

Words fail me. One of the babies she attempted to kill with insulin survived but with lasting effects. Hardly a “pleasant death” (wtaf??). Your suggestion that she ‘euthanised’ perfectly healthy babies is obscene, frankly. More than that, people like you are why evil flourishes. You’re incredibly naive if you think the fact you can’t comprehend why people would do terrible things means it doesn’t happen and there must be an excuse for it.

Show quote history

I wasn't suggesting her mind set set was right. Of course it was wrong. You seem to have ignored the main body of the post.

Supergirl1958 · 19/08/2023 08:38

Whattodo112222 · 18/08/2023 22:32

I felt awful the entire way through that documentary. That lead Consultant so clearly has ptsd..

Those poor, poor families.

I'm utterly dumbfounded all her friends are sticking by her.

💯! The tears in his eyes by the end! Poor man and what he and his colleagues have been through. He must have felt at some points that he didn’t have a voice!

The way they were made to write a letter of apology was sickening! These people need prosecution!

Alexandra2001 · 19/08/2023 08:39

One of her friends still says she is innocent and will never believe Letby did these things.
I find that incredible.

Equally, 7 experts in their field tell a senior executive that Letby is suspect and shouldn't be on duty but is over ridden by a senior manager...... even wiling to take responsibility if anything goes wrong that evening.... such arrogance.

There is no doubt the management of that trust need to be held criminally accountable, they get paid 100s of '000s and we are told they justify these salaries because they are the best..... well lets see them in court to explain?

Marmite17 · 19/08/2023 08:41

Yes the admin need prosecution as well as the killer.

BeverleyMacker · 19/08/2023 08:41

Whattodo112222 · 18/08/2023 22:32

I felt awful the entire way through that documentary. That lead Consultant so clearly has ptsd..

Those poor, poor families.

I'm utterly dumbfounded all her friends are sticking by her.

Which documentary please?

I just can't get my head around the sheer evilness of this...thing...she looked like butter wouldn't melt 😡

MinnieTruck · 19/08/2023 08:41

I’m surprised that there’s a documentary out already, bloody hell. That’s a bit much isn’t it?! The day that she’s found guilty BBC release a documentary on her instead of showing Masterchef. Couldn’t they even wait a week or so?

BreatheAndFocus · 19/08/2023 08:43

Marmite17 · 19/08/2023 08:37

I wasn't suggesting her mind set set was right. Of course it was wrong. You seem to have ignored the main body of the post.

Show quote history

How? I read your post twice and quoted the whole thing. You seemed to be suggesting stress caused this and/or she was euthanising the babies out of ‘kindness’.

Ridemeginger · 19/08/2023 08:43

That’s what I don’t understand. Even if the managers didn’t think LL was responsible, how and why did they think all the insulin, air and excess milk was ending up in the systems of these newborns, time and time again?

MentholLoad · 19/08/2023 08:43

More than that, people like you are why evil flourishes. You’re incredibly naive if you think the fact you can’t comprehend why people would do terrible things means it doesn’t happen and there must be an excuse for it

@BreatheAndFocus , I am like this too. even now I am finding in hard to believe she is guilty. I KNOW she is, but I do have to keep rationalising it because my first instinct is, no she couldn't possibly have done that

Iserstatue · 19/08/2023 08:44

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/08/2023 08:33

In many cases there are records of it. Medical records, reports to social care, testimony from siblings, grandparents etc. Also, all behaviours including violence are partly genetic. So a violent person is far more likely than a nonviolent person to have had violent parents. That would be true even if they had been adopted at birth into a nonviolent family. A criminal psychologist would hopefully be aware of that. So it's not unreasonable to start from an assumption that such claims are likely to be true. That's probably especially the case when you're talking about murder, which is the most extreme form of violence.

Show quote history

She's talking nonsense. There used to be a theory that serial killing correlated with childhood trauma but there are numerous cases of that not being evidentially based.

Ted Bundy is a good but extreme example (in terms of his offending).

BreatheAndFocus · 19/08/2023 08:47

MentholLoad · 19/08/2023 08:43

More than that, people like you are why evil flourishes. You’re incredibly naive if you think the fact you can’t comprehend why people would do terrible things means it doesn’t happen and there must be an excuse for it

@BreatheAndFocus , I am like this too. even now I am finding in hard to believe she is guilty. I KNOW she is, but I do have to keep rationalising it because my first instinct is, no she couldn't possibly have done that

You’re very honest. For me, the disbelief would only potentially happen if it was someone I knew well. Then the closeness would possibly confuse my judgement, if that makes sense? At least initially, that is.

Tothebeach2day · 19/08/2023 08:50

Nat6999 · 18/08/2023 23:33

Didn't the hospital decide she wasn't to blame for the deaths at some point? Surely then the management are guilty of corporate manslaughter?

This is my view. Surely in the example of the consultant ringing an executive at night to say there’s a direct risk to patients the following day and that executive takes no action, and when the concern is expressed as blatantly as asking if they’ll take personal liability if a baby is hurt /killed following their inaction, and they still do nothing (and as a result there’s direct harm and loss of life) that has to be corporate manslaughter.

MentholLoad · 19/08/2023 08:50

BreatheAndFocus · 19/08/2023 08:47

You’re very honest. For me, the disbelief would only potentially happen if it was someone I knew well. Then the closeness would possibly confuse my judgement, if that makes sense? At least initially, that is.

Show quote history

I have been aware and struggled with this about other awful things that have been done by people. I don't know why, but I am very aware of it. presumably other people feel this too. I would love to understand why

Marmite17 · 19/08/2023 08:51

BreatheAndFocus · 19/08/2023 08:43

How? I read your post twice and quoted the whole thing. You seemed to be suggesting stress caused this and/or she was euthanising the babies out of ‘kindness’.

Show quote history

I'm suggesting in her mind she may have thought that. Trying to see why she she may have done it. Not mine, because I don't understand it. Quote I can't contemplate. She should have been moved.
And the mistakes made my admin which allowed it to happen.

Greetingsfellows · 19/08/2023 08:56

WombatCowgirl · 19/08/2023 08:13

I've noticed how when someone commits a terrible crime there is a tendency to portray them as a monster and a demon, a "psychopath", to distance them from the rest of us, to cast them out from humanity in a reassuring way, and then look back for signs that should have been spotted sooner that this person was not one of us.

I remember a news report showing the class photograph of Harold Shipman at primary school and calling him, " a sinister child in a bow tie" in the gravelly voice used to describe baddies in film trailers. On this thread people are saying some people are born evil, the parents must have known etc. I always wonder of this is a coping mechanism for society, so that we feel less guilty for not noticing that people who ARE humans, who have friends, socialise etc can do these things.

The reverse seems to happen too: what was that case in Bristol where an older, eccentric single man was falsely accused of murder?

As she was an ill baby herself, had a traumatic birth and became a cosseted child, maybe yes there is a logic here: all those babies are now ill like her, and she can save them or her potential lover can save them, or she can see how devastated the families are. Subconsciously she might be reliving her own trauma, making it play out again and again. There can be logic there, without empathy to limit her actions. I don't imagine many people who commit these crimes are rubbing their hands together like a stereotypical villain.

I largely agree with you. It's not just murder. It goes for many horrible crimes, often related to children. I think it's actually a self-preservation thing that people (sub-consciously) do to limit their anxiety. The idea that these criminals have a 'look' or there are major signs that are obvious is ridiculous. The reason they get away with these crimes for long periods of time is because they DO appear 'normal'. It might be hard to comprehend but when you know someone/have been a victim of someone who has committed this type of crime, it is incredibly unsettling to realise how 'normal' they were/seemed. It's incredibly naive to assume that you'd have known just from looking at them that they were a wrong 'un.

Shurleyknot · 19/08/2023 08:56

Maybe the first one was an accident and she revelled in all the attention and sympathy it got her and then the next and subseqent ones were pre meditated? It is all so horrible to think what was going through her mind. I am not sure I can watch the panorama documentary.

Towdalinenow · 19/08/2023 08:56

My experience is that a lot of senior operational managers are nurses and they will protect their own. Nurses are held on a pedestal far above other professions in the NHS.

So I’m not surprised that senior management didn’t believe she was capable of murder. But what is unusual is the refusal to listen to the medics, they usually hold a lot of power and management listens to them.

iloveeverykindofcat · 19/08/2023 08:58

I've mentioned this before on MN but I'm a sociologist and I used to share an office with a criminologist who interviewed several serial killer in prison. He described the 'typical' serial killer as an ordinary looking, averagely intelligent white male in his thirties or forties with no particular charisma and an extremely damaged worldview. He said talking to them is more depressing than anything.

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