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Not only did Lucy Letby kill and badly hurt babies…

803 replies

determinedtomakethiswork · 18/08/2023 22:23

She also prepared the memory boxes for parents of the dead children. Can you imagine having a memory box with photos and footprints of your dead child which had been taken by his or her merger?

That goes way beyond the murder. I just don't know how the families are coping.

OP posts:
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28
SomethingSmellsOffHere · 19/08/2023 09:37

Why is there not any CCTV in these high dependency wards?

Sorry if this has been already asked. There should be now.

I'm sure she is guilty, but I thought it may be hard to convict her as there is no actual tangible evidence is there? There are no witnesses, no CCTV and no caught in the act. I thought the defence might have been able to tear it apart.

It is the right outcome of course.

Leftlegwest · 19/08/2023 09:42

LizzieSiddal · 19/08/2023 09:24

@Iserstatue I'm not that poster but they're not wrong. Look up the numerous studies about genetics and violence and aggression.

And just look at the numerous studies about environment and violence and aggression. There is huge debate around Nature/Nurture and I was specifically responding to @Pollyputhekettleon comment “Also, all behaviours including violence are partly genetic.”

It is NOT true to say that “ALL behaviours are partly genetic”.

I think you've read the post differently to me. By all behaviours I believe the poster means 'all types of behaviour' not that in all cases behaviour is genetic.

LizzieSiddal · 19/08/2023 09:43

@MotherofGorgons ·
It reminds me very much of Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos. And how she was able to fool so many for so long.

Thank you! I knew Letby reminded me of someone and I couldn’t place her. They have the same demeanour.

Iserstatue · 19/08/2023 09:44

Reginaldperrin · 19/08/2023 09:24

I actually disagree when people say that most criminals who do monsterous things look just like everybody else. Obviously sometimes that’s the case. But loads of these offenders look dead in their eyes - they don’t look “normal” imh. Also, there’s often many other clues in their behaviours and everyday life that suggest their deviancy.

As someone said earlier in relation to Wayne Couzens. His colleagues called him the rapist, he exposed himself to women several times, and quite frankly he looks like a thug.

Other child murderers often have a history of watching child pornography or other crimes.

I think what’s interesting with LL is that non of her behaviour seems to have hinted that’s she was being capable of such crimes. I think we’re all so horrified that she could do such horrendous acts because she’s a woman. Maybe women like this are able to compartmentalise their crimes in a way that men can’t?

My thoughts are with all those poor babies families and the doctors that blew the whistle and weren’t listened to.

You're going by photographs, quite often ones taken by the Police when the person isn't going to give a grin and have their best angle captured. And often after hours of being in a Police station under stress.

Anyone here think they look fab in their passport pic lol?

Lucy doesn't look "dead behind the eyes" in all the pics of her on a night out.

mangochops · 19/08/2023 09:44

I worked on a forensic unit for quite a while. The general feeling is that criminality like this is a complex combination of genetics plus environmental factors. In some people, this combination can be the perfect storm. Brain scans have shown that psychopaths simply do not have the same empathic responses to viewing upsetting stimuli as the "normal" population. Therefore, they simply arent capable of normal human empathy because their brains just dont work that way. That said, many people with psychopathic traits go on to have successful careers in medicine, finance, and other positions of power and they manage to remain within the law because they have learnt to achieve their need for power and attention through legitimate means. Similarly, many people who have had horribly abusive childhoods dont go on to murder other people so in my mind, it is a rare combination of genetic propensity plus environmental triggers that would cause this.

LizzieSiddal · 19/08/2023 09:45

@Leftlegwest I think you've read the post differently to me. By all behaviours I believe the poster means 'all types of behaviour' not that in all cases behaviour is genetic.

Yes I did read it differently. If the poster means what you say, apologies!

DrasticAction · 19/08/2023 09:47

@TomatoSandwiches incompletely agree.

I've seen first hand what happens (far less serious situation) when someone's doesn't act and chooses to sweeper things aside.

Antihistamine62 · 19/08/2023 09:48

Good for you! I have also been interrogated as to why I failed a management placement student who had clearly been a failure to fail throughout her training. I couldn’t trust a word she said, even as much as checking urine volumes. Very dangerous. She also resat in another area and passed. I dread to think about her poor patients and colleagues now.

Reginaldperrin · 19/08/2023 09:49

@Iserstatue i agree about Lucy Letby, and I think that’s what’s making it more unusual.

MotherofGorgons · 19/08/2023 09:51

What really boggles the mind is that 7 consultants complained about her for nearly 2 years and demanded police investigate- as I understand- and were still ignored. One- Dr Jayaram who has been thanked profusely by the survivors parents- caught her in the act!

I am baffled why the hospital chose to ignore this in the wake of Beverley Allitt.

RedToothBrush · 19/08/2023 09:54

Cucucucu · 19/08/2023 08:11

I want to read all court transcripts on this one . The fact the jury took weeks to deliberate makes me curious on the actual evidence . Now I’m by no means saying she is innocent , I do t believe she is but it would not be the first time a negligent hospital uses a nurse as a scapegoat .
I do wonder if she will appeal .

The fact the jury took ages means nothing really. The problem they almost certainly had is the point about "beyond all reasonable doubt".

They clearly think she passed that threshold on a number of the murders - but crucially not all.

So there would have been some argument in the jury room over those other cases and whether they are sure there was no other explanation for the deaths of those children and/or that she was the only one who could have been responsible for them.

That alone could have caused the deliberation to be lengthy - whilst they were also firmly convinced on a number of the murders.

In terms of 'evil', I think the desire to other killers is really compelling. 'They are not like us'. It's protective in a sense. Yet the very point made during the Nuremberg trials was 'the banality of evil' and how utterly normal and average those in the dock were. It was circumstances and opportunity that led them to do what they did.

In the Letby case you have a scenario where, even when she had people saying she was the problems, the hospital trust stepped in and said she was effectively untouchable. So she did more whilst being watched, because she could. It's a power trip at that point.

Reading that criminology article upthread about healthcare killers it's also fascinating in the sense that, unlike other forms of murder which are done mainly by mean, the profile is different. It seems to be much more evenly split between males and females - and that in itself is something that is shocking. Why is that the case? It is environmental in some way and that being exposed to the illness and death of others somehow has an impact? It also said that about half seems to have mental disorders. Conversely that says that half don't and are classified as sane. The feature that seems to mark Beverly Allit as different to Lucy Letby is the former was determined to be ill.

Given all this, I do think the hospital needs investigating because it was hung up on its reputation and had a disbelief that someone could be doing this, despite the data being damning. Why was there such a high death rate? The hospital management if they cared about their reputation should have been all over that. The fact the consultants all grouped together to say that 'nice Lucy' was giving them cause for cause coupled with the death rate is the ultimate issue.

The idea that someone normal could be doing this, is at the very heart of the issue - and of public shock. But that's precisely why she did get away with it for so long.

And the hospital gave her the opportunity to do it even more. The criminology article says about how health care killers seem to be addicted - they do the same thing over and over again. It is almost like they can't stop themselves. That note that was found, in this context almost reads as if Letby wanted to stop or be stopped but wasn't. If healthcare murderers are unchecked they have some of the highest rates of murder there are. That's what hospital management should be aware of in terms of a pattern and safeguarding. Dodgy death rates need a follow up. It's it's poor practice or a dodgy person. Either way that's the responsibility of management to be keeping an eye on.

Of course healthcare murderers shock us more because the job of these people is to make us better not to kill. But also the sex of the perpetrators can make us all feel more vulnerable and that pattern of murderer's usually being male doesn't fit healthcare murderers. So again that defies our expectations and feelings of comfort.

We want to believe in the bad guy who is obvious because then we can spot him easily. That makes us feel safer that it is something we are immune to and we have control over. We can avoid the situation by 'making good choices about who we associate with and where we go and how' - it's the 'she shouldn't have dressed like that' mentality that blames the victim.

As I say, the idea of a murderer being normal, nice, female and in a caring role over people when they are most vulnerable is the most terrifying dynamic of all. Especially if the victims are children. It's all our nightmares at once. Because it goes against every bit of the way we've been conditioned and therefore undermines our trust in others to the highest degree. But that's precisely where hospital management should be in terms of safeguarding the public - looking for the arrogance of incompetence and the banality of evil.

JusthereforXmas · 19/08/2023 10:00

What this woman did is awful and I can't begin to imagine what the parents went through (a living nightmare) but I also wonder if this woman is mentally stable.

Its easy to through around words like 'evil; assuming all peoples brains work the same but something about this specific case keeps making me think 'Munchausen by Proxy'.

I have a family member with Munchausen (not specifically by proxy but their behavior has endanger others before) and the scariest thing about them is their seemingly lack of understanding of death.

Now I only have personal experience of my family member but with them:

They get 'irritated' not upset when someone dies (like a loved family member). They talk about it as if the person went on holiday without them and the irritation appears to be at the thought they 'haven't come back yet'. They also clearly have ZERO concept that the extreme things they have done to their body has nearly killed them many times (they have been sectioned for their own safety multiple times and genuinely don't seem to understand why).

There is something for lack of a better term 'not right' with their understanding of the severity and permanence of death that is what spurs their lack of empathy and lack of fear. The blank nothing behind the eyes look they give when talking about its quite terrifying even though my family member isn't deliberately dangerous to others.

That doesn't mean this Lucy lady gets away with this. Mental Illness does not mean you can go killing people and she is clearly a very dangerous person but I just get that same feeling I get from my family member that she possibly lacks a 'critical understanding' of how horrific what she has done actually is.

RedToothBrush · 19/08/2023 10:02

SomethingSmellsOffHere · 19/08/2023 09:37

Why is there not any CCTV in these high dependency wards?

Sorry if this has been already asked. There should be now.

I'm sure she is guilty, but I thought it may be hard to convict her as there is no actual tangible evidence is there? There are no witnesses, no CCTV and no caught in the act. I thought the defence might have been able to tear it apart.

It is the right outcome of course.

Because patients still should have privacy and dignity. Sticking in cameras on a ward could cause all sorts of other abuse. Who has access to the footage? Who checks the footage hasn't gone missing? What might be on that footage and what happens if it does go missing?

If you have a person who is minded to do X, y or z then doing it on camera might actually appeal rather than discourage. Then removing that footage might also be something that they want.

The point for me is that the death rate of the ward was questionable - they shouldn't have needed CCTV to spot the problem if due diligence was being done. Causes of death weren't followed up on.

Why add another factor to the mix which could lead to abuse when if people had been doing their jobs properly with safeguarding this should have been spotted long before consultants were so desparate they wanted CCTV.

Calls for CCTV are always the last resort of failed practice elsewhere. And it can also lead to a false sense of security.

Oh no one would do X because there are cameras now. And then no one bothers to check the tapes.

Dibbydoos · 19/08/2023 10:03

Nevermay · 18/08/2023 22:36

what I don't understand is how her parents could have brought her up to the age of 18 without realising that there was something seriously wrong, and that she needed to be prevented from becoming a nurse.

How can she have hidden what she was capable of, from being a tiny child upwards?

Because psychopaths are adept as covering up their true selves. Look at how she was in that police interview. Calm and cold. If she dealt with life's curveball calmly everyone would think she's got her shit together. Privately who knows how she relieved that pressure until she started harming and killing babies.

She is mentally sick - she did what she did then went about her normal everyday life.

Her friends are duped and don't want to admit they were mates with a killer - it's a normal response tbf - overtime their views will likely change.

Allit was the same type of mentality.

She probably has a psycopathic-P brain if you read these studies. I think they should study her and Allitts brains to confirm.

https://psychcentral.com/news/2012/05/11/scans-show-psychopaths-have-brain-abnormalities#1
https://www.nhsinform.scot/illnesses-and-conditions/mental-health/munchausens-syndrome#:~:text=One%20theory%20is%20that%20people,sense%20of%20power%20and%20control.

Those poor babies that died and have been left injured by her and the pain suffered by their families. 😔 What a terrible and prolonged trauma to go through.

She is only young, so she needs a full life term imo.

Scans Show Psychopaths Have Brain Abnormalities

New research shows that psychopathy appears to be linked to specific structural abnormalities in the brain. Th

https://psychcentral.com/news/2012/05/11/scans-show-psychopaths-have-brain-abnormalities#1

Hohohogreenjennie · 19/08/2023 10:05

SomethingSmellsOffHere · 19/08/2023 09:37

Why is there not any CCTV in these high dependency wards?

Sorry if this has been already asked. There should be now.

I'm sure she is guilty, but I thought it may be hard to convict her as there is no actual tangible evidence is there? There are no witnesses, no CCTV and no caught in the act. I thought the defence might have been able to tear it apart.

It is the right outcome of course.

I think patients and parents would kick off big time if they introduced CCTV on wards. It would invade people’s privacy, dignity and respect. I certainly wouldn’t want a camera on the ward and in my cubicle. Who knows what creep has access to it and is watching me.

Globalfrumpmaster78 · 19/08/2023 10:06

Alexandra2001 · 19/08/2023 08:39

One of her friends still says she is innocent and will never believe Letby did these things.
I find that incredible.

Equally, 7 experts in their field tell a senior executive that Letby is suspect and shouldn't be on duty but is over ridden by a senior manager...... even wiling to take responsibility if anything goes wrong that evening.... such arrogance.

There is no doubt the management of that trust need to be held criminally accountable, they get paid 100s of '000s and we are told they justify these salaries because they are the best..... well lets see them in court to explain?

Absolutely agree that the management going against the advice of seven consultants and protecting the institution above the patients is horrific BUT I would also be asking serious questions about the culture of an institution where managers are under pressure from government to “make things work” at all costs despite sustained financial under-resourcing and under-staffing.

I imagine that leads to a macho mindset of carrying on and ignoring a multitude of difficulties despite them staring you in the face every day. And let’s face it, no one is planning to encounter a random serial killer are they?

That’s not to excuse what they did but I think government should take responsibility too as there are far too many of these incidences all over the uk where managers cover up clinical failures and sub standard care. What I want to know is who is putting pressure on them to do this? And why aren’t they being held accountable too?

Waterweir · 19/08/2023 10:16

@Salacia Really excellent post!

PurpleWisteria1 · 19/08/2023 10:17

RadishesForYou · 19/08/2023 02:09

No, it is you who is wrong. A personality disorder is the result of abuse and neglect, it is not biological.

Not true in all cases. Conduct disorder is a mixture of genetics and early childhood experiences. It’s not 100% known what causes personality disorders.
https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/personality-disorder/
The child I know had parents who split early in their lives but apart from that has had a loving home with a mother who can’t do enough for them.

nhs.uk

Personality disorders

NHS information about personality disorders, including the main symptoms and treatments.

https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/personality-disorder/

1AngelicFruitCake · 19/08/2023 10:26

Being a whistleblower is much harder than you may imagine it is. I work with children, I had a situation with a colleague two years ago where I felt a child was poorly treated. This colleague is senior to me. I went to the assistant head and was met with disbelief and slight mockery. I stuck to my guns and it was investigated and dealt with. Senior leaders in all walks of life but especially with vulnerable people, need to have it drummed into them that they must take concerns seriously, no matter the personal feelings they have on the matter.

Highdaysandholidays1 · 19/08/2023 10:27

I don't know about parents kicking off big time about CCTV on high-dependence neo-natal wards, perhaps not after this case. At the highest level of dependency, the 'patients' are tiny babies who are not roaming around. I am not suggesting CCTV in general in the NHS at all, but covert surveillance has been used to successfully detect Munchausens by Proxy, I read a paper about it the other day and in about half the suspected cases it confirmed it, and some were also proven innocent.

I think had these parents been told there's a pattern of unexplained deaths, we do not know what's causing it, CCTV is being installed, they would have been ok with that although most would have removed their children from that ward if possible. The whole terrible thing depended on parents NOT being informed, NOT being told there was this bad pattern, NOT being kept in the loop and that's why they put their most precious possessions, their tiny babies in that place and consented to do so.

I'd be looking to bring a private prosecution if at all possible, and if I had the emotional energy (probably not) against the hospital for failure to safeguard for those that did not get convictions (or even those that did). I hope they do.

DrasticAction · 19/08/2023 10:29

@MotherofGorgons

Quite.

How they were treated is.... I can't describe.
I'm so appalled. One said please put cc tv in there if she goes back in.

Has anything happened to these blockers? What happens to them? They told the consultants there would be blue and white tape everywhere.

abigailsnan · 19/08/2023 10:29

TomatoSandwiches · 18/08/2023 22:39

The response and management or rather lack of the accusations and concerns put forward is almost as pathological as Letby herself.
The NHS infrastructure and culture needs a complete overhaul from the ground up, the trust in question is partly responsible for the extent and volume of damage she has caused.
They should be held culpable in a court of law.

All those managers concerned have now left the trust and have gone on to other well paid positions,one has moved to France to a large property another has moved to Wales and opened a posh week-end retreat all paid for with their massive pensions paid for by us I hope that they get charged for at least withholding information if that is possible.

Marmite17 · 19/08/2023 10:30

MotherofGorgons · 19/08/2023 09:51

What really boggles the mind is that 7 consultants complained about her for nearly 2 years and demanded police investigate- as I understand- and were still ignored. One- Dr Jayaram who has been thanked profusely by the survivors parents- caught her in the act!

I am baffled why the hospital chose to ignore this in the wake of Beverley Allitt.

When was she caught in the act?

DrasticAction · 19/08/2023 10:31

@Highdaysandholidays1

I've ween this within education as well and in the care home sector where the parents are misled with the wrong information or, omission.

Fairyliz · 19/08/2023 10:32

I’ve said it before but we need to bring back the death sentence for people like this. There’s no excuse, no it could have been someone else or she made a tragic error. She deliberately murdered these children in her care.
There is no way she will change so we just spend millions keeping her locked up why?