What do you think if someone went to Oxford or Cambridge University?

[ephemeris]

I've been genuinely shocked that some people find it hard to believe that you don't have to be posh to go to Oxford or Cambridge. I went to Oxford for my first degree, where I met dh who was doing a masters course. We then both moved to Cambridge when he did his PhD there.

I'm from a low income household in the NE, went to a shockingly bad state comp, and somehow fluked a place at Oxford in the 90s.

Usually people have no idea what university someone went to, but if it ever comes up and we mention we went to Oxbridge, people are a bit 🤔. I even had a colleague at work once, who told me it was my round at the bar because I must be able to afford it if I went to Oxford.

'Posh' is used in relation to the British class construct and linked to social inequality etc. Which as why as a PP said it's one of the few acceptable groups to bash.

Everyone happily ignores the fact that, as you said, the super rich international students are a more relevant in terms of 'taking' places. Universities want their money, an international fee is at least double that of UK students and rises annually.

But they are completely ignored in these discussions. And presumably not the people getting into government etc!

FWIW I'm from one of the unis @KnittedCardi mentioned
One of the few 'poor' international students as I was on scholarship....

Yet somehow Oxbridge bears the brunt of the posh reputation.

Everyone happily ignores the fact that, as you said, the super rich international students are a more relevant in terms of 'taking' places. Universities want their money, an international fee is at least double that of UK students and rises annually.

Yes. Universities are trying to widen access and have more students from state schools in UK.
Do they also check on the schools that overseas students went to? Or the backgrounds and incomes of their parents?
if not, why not?

There are three reasons I try not to let people know I went to Oxford:

1. The one you mention
2. They frequently just don’t believe me (obviously I don’t seem bright enough)
3. They think I should be doing better than I am (I’m a teacher) - backing up your point about the school you attended being a better predictor of your job/earnings

its also pertinent to point out that the latest research suggests that school attended best predicts outcome in terms of job/earnings

Does that apply to state schools or public/private schools?

DH and I met at Cambridge. I'd say most of our friends in the town we live in probably don't know that (maybe more with him, as he grew up locally). I know that we're both ordinary, academically able people, so I wouldn't think anything very much about other people who'd been to Oxbridge - I know they run a whole range from very smart/very posh to more average.

I had a funny conversation with a school-mum friend recently. DD is very able academically. School mum asked me about which university DH and I had been to (in the context of where our kids are interested in as they're starting to go to open days etc). When I told her, she immediately said in a very surprised tone, 'Oh, so you and [DH] are actually clever too!' She apologised profusely, but there was no need!

Exactly.

I mean, I get that this is a futile exercise. Obviously everyone in the UK gets a loan for fees. UK universities can't take in people from impoverished backgrounds whose parents can't afford the fees.

But in environments like , say in Postgraduate studies with 63% international students... No point banging on about an environment with too many kids from private schools in the U.K when there isn't enough of them to influence the environment

Do they have to have amounted to anything more than just studied and passed exams at a certain level? What should I make I of myself if I have an Oxford or Cambridge degree? What's an acceptable level of attainment?

@Whataretheodds well they struggle to hold down a job, which causes them untold stress and unhappiness.

To have spent that amount of money and effort on studying, I would say holding down a job would probably be minimum level of attainment.

I tbink they are clever - as you need to be to get in.

They're different skills, though. Many of the most highly intelligent individuals - genius, even - struggle with everyday life. Co-incidence of high mathematical ability and autism, for example, is a stereotype because of notable examples of people who carry both of those traits.

Minutewaltz · Today 15:12
its also pertinent to point out that the latest research suggests that school attended best predicts outcome in terms of job/earnings

Does that apply to state schools or public/private schools?*

Sorry, that was me and I phrased this lazily. The research suggests that university attended predicts future earnings less well than a number of factors (likely associated) including parental occupation, school attended (state = worse) and ethnicity. Working class kids who go to top tier universities are still less likely to achieve high flying jobs. The civil service summer internship programme tries to correct for this for example.

if you are interested in learning more, this is a interesting read:
https://www.bps.org.uk/news/bps-launches-new-campaign-make-social-class-protected-characteristic#

Amol Rajan’s documentary ‘how to crack the class ceiling’ is also an eye opening watch. I think it is still available on iPlayer.

you can have hard knowledge but kids from state schools with working class parents may lack the softer know how and networks. There’s many a ‘nepo’ thread on here where posters think it’s entirely ok to accept this on the basis that it’s inevitable or that working class people also have networks which may be true but if those links are to lower paid jobs that’s not a strong argument.

Did you do an Oxford PGCE?/..?

@Whataretheodds I don't quite know what you are getting at.

The OP asked what you would think of someone who had studied at Oxbridge. I stated that I would think they had been clever and driven and had some support behind them at 18. That's all. A fair few of the people I know who have been simply peaked early and seemed of above average intelligence from childhood. It turns out they are not, they are decidedly average and the pressure that has been placed upon them has not done them any good.

I'm not talking about people with autism. Im just talking about the people I know.

@Minutewaltz so to summarise, it’s not sufficient to send working class kids (which was me!) to university and expect
this to correct social inequality. Those kids need additional support to guide them in their future careers.

Also, none of them studied maths or anything like that.

They studied humanities and are of very average intelligence. It's just that, at the time, they had a better vocabulary and more self confidence than most 18 year olds.

The rest of their peers soon caught up.

Yes I've seen a lot of this.
It's also very easy to get into Oxbridge if you do something like Classics which prefer a Latin A level.
Or erm Theology?

Different if it's mathematics, computer science etc those are truly the best brains.

I tend not to judge people by their credentials though. How they conduct themselves is more relevant. I've had a few clever acquaintances who only wanted to drone on about their areas of interest... Zzzzzzz

And before anybody Jumps on to say that's an autistic thing I have ADHD and possible autism, hubby is autistic so erm I can say it without getting flamed :)

No, my undergrad degree was at Oxford.

Fair enough
I think people put others down because of their own insecurities.
Also they have their own ideas of what clever people look like. Especially if you're a woman!

As PP said you could be very intelligent in a narrow area and useless in all others...

I guess people think doing a prestigious degree is a waste' if you end up in the same place as someone who didn't but it also works the other way around. Life isn't linear and people judge all the time... On random things

That’s interesting, as I know lots of people who seem to think the exact opposite - studying one of the humanities (especially Classics, which is apparently the pinnacle of intellectual achievement) is the mark of a true genius, whereas if you’re good at the sciences you just worked hard. (I did a science btw…!)

To be fair when I was there the vast majority of international students were also very posh/wealthy- partly I assume because international fees are so high!

I think that is true today of any university in the UK TBH. DD's international friends at her university (Newcastle) all came from wealthy families.

I think people put others down because of their own insecurities.

I agree.

Terloz thank you for answering my question.
If class became a protected characteristic would that mean that no class based insults would be allowed?

I suppose I just find it a bit sad that so many people think I should have a “better” job when I’m using my subject to teach others whereas most of my subject peers went into finance. They may be earning about four times what I do, but why does that mean that I’m wasting my degree and they’re not?

I went there from similar background to you in 1990s. Many of the people there were from wealthy private school backgrounds esp the boys. Pastoral care was great, far better than at school. Workload was not high. With regard to working very different success rates, initially private school went into much higher paid jobs than state school ones as they had that encouraged to them and had contacts with experience. I remember one girl was going into teaching and she said people did look down on it there. I found it generally opened doors but occasionally you were better not to mention. I worked at a few places almost all Oxbridge. The colleagues I know from Oxbridge are exceptionally bright but can be quite specialised and some lack social skills, a bit like asd type profile which can make work challenging. Some I think have little interest in working in a corporate way, when I worked in banking they said they often turned down people with 1sts from Oxbridge as not commercial focused and would get too obsessed with detail.

As a hiring manager I have had that experience. Not turning down people solely by their degree
But that many 'top students' aren't good in a business environment.
I wouldn't say 'corporate'. Whether it's that, a non-profit or even academia everyone has to deal with politics, market themselves etc in order to succeed. Of course, some are truly brilliant and can get by on raw intelligence but the vast majority even getting firsts will need more than that.