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Ukraine Invasion: Part 43

992 replies

MagicFox · 08/07/2023 11:10

With thanks as usual to everyone!

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jgw1 · 17/07/2023 09:41

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 17/07/2023 09:26

More grimly, and I hate to write this, but there have been a couple of worrying pieces of information recently.

Zelenskyy said that at the start of the counter offensive that only 15% of promised hardware and mine-clearing vehicles had arrived. Some of those have not survived. So it's possible that they are very, very low on mine clearing stuff and are completely stuck at the Surovikin lines (thank heavens and Putin's idiocy that he seems to be out of circulation atm).

Ukraine is very clearly working wonders on ammo dumps and command centres (noted over the last weeks, and those are only the ones that are reported). So the Russian invading force is being softened up. But getting through the Surovikin lines, it's worrying at the moment.

Are they actually fighting at the main part of the Surovikin lines? I had the impression they were further back than the current front lines. I wonder if Ukraine are reasonably happy degrading Russia capacity in front of the main defensive line in the hope that there won't be enough resources or manpower to man the main obstacle.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 17/07/2023 09:44

I have the impression, and it's only an impression, that they are a little bit (as in, 10 minutes' walk or less) from the 1st line of the 3 but this is only an impression and could well be wrong.

jgw1 · 17/07/2023 09:54

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 17/07/2023 09:44

I have the impression, and it's only an impression, that they are a little bit (as in, 10 minutes' walk or less) from the 1st line of the 3 but this is only an impression and could well be wrong.

I had assumed they had been built (I could look at the maps to confirm I guess) 20-30km back from the winter frontline, so that the construction was not under artillery fire.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 17/07/2023 10:05

Good question. Im not sure of the answer though if they were 20-30km back from the winter lines, Ukraine would probably have overrun the winter lines already, presumably?

From the snippets I've read here and there there are considerable artillery exchanges going on in some places, with longer range stuff being kept for high value targets. However Ukraine is struggling with ammunition stocks, hence the cluster bombs.

Again only an impression but from what I've read it still seems like Ukraine is carrying out localized probing attacks, but very carefully. A Ukrainian high ranking officer said they are losing less people to death than expected but more injured. Perhaps a military person could say if that's consonant with mine injuries.

There was a terribly sad request from a hospital near the front lines for left shoes. They need 4 times as many left shoes as right, because mostly people put their right leg first and that's the one that gets blown up. For a request like that to be aired means that they do need a lot of shoes :/

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 17/07/2023 10:42

@jgw1 today's UK int update indicates the Ukrainians are indeed targeting Russian lines with artillery.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 43
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 17/07/2023 10:52

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-july-16-2023

Key Takeaways:

  • The Russian MoD has begun to remove commanders from some of the Russian military’s most combat effective units and formations and appears to be accelerating this effort.
  • Insubordination among commanders appears to be spreading to some of their soldiers.
  • Teplinsky himself set the precedent for the acts of insubordination that are currently plaguing the Russian MoD.
  • The Kremlin’s chronic disregard for the Russian chain of command is likely hindering Shoigu and Gerasimov in their attempts to suppress insubordination and establish full control over the Russian military in Ukraine.
  • The intensifying dynamic of insubordination among Russian commanders in Ukraine may prompt other commanders to oppose the Russian military leadership more overtly.
  • Russian commanders are likely setting information conditions to prevent the Russian MoD from punishing them for their insubordination by promoting narratives among Russian servicemembers along the front and thereby risking widespread demoralization.
  • The Russian veteran and ultranationalist communities appear to be readily defending the commanders’ insubordination by amplifying defeatist discussions that may have direct effects on Russian servicemembers’ morale.
  • The apparent crisis in the Russian chain of command and the corresponding morale effects it may produce will likely degrade Russian capabilities to conduct tactical offensive operations that are critical to the Russian elastic defense in southern Ukraine.
  • The apparent Russian chain of command crisis threatens to demoralize the wider Russian war effort in Ukraine.
  • Ukrainian forces conducted counteroffensive operations on at least three sectors of the front and reportedly made limited gains.
  • Kiriyenko’s role in this consolidation is notable given his increasing reach in the Russian federal government and prior connections to Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin.
  • Russian forces conducted offensive operations on the Kupyansk-Svatove line and did not make confirmed advances.
  • Russian forces continued ground attacks near Kreminna and made tactical advances.
  • Ukrainian forces continue to target Russian rear areas in occupied Luhansk Oblast.
  • Ukrainian forces continued counteroffensive operations near Bakhmut and reportedly advanced.
  • Russian and Ukrainian sources confirmed that some Chechen forces have deployed to the Bakhmut area.
  • Russian forces continued limited ground attacks on the Avdiivka-Donetsk City line and did not advance.
  • Ukrainian forces conducted counteroffensive operations on the western Donetsk-eastern Zaporizhia border area and made limited gains.
  • Ukrainian forces conducted counteroffensive operations in western Zaporizhia Oblast and did not make confirmed advances in the area.
  • Russian sources claimed that Ukrainian forces continue to operate on east (left) bank Kherson Oblast near the Antonivsky Bridge and did not claim any Russian or Ukrainian advances in the area.
  • Russian officials accused Ukrainian forces of attempting an aerial and maritime drone strike against unspecified targets in the Black Sea near Sevastopol, Crimea overnight on July 15 to 16.
  • Russian “Lancet” drone (loitering munition) producer Zalo Aero Group announced the production of a new generation of drones with automatic targeting systems and the intention to expand production abroad.
  • A Ukrainian report indicates that Russian occupation authorities continue persecuting religious minorities in occupied Ukraine as part of a broader cultural genocide aimed at eradicating the Ukrainian national and cultural identity.
  • Wagner Group forces will reportedly integrate into the Russian-Belarusian Union State Regional Grouping of Troops (RGV).

Expanded:

  • *Putin consistently bypassed or ignored the established chain of command ... [he] had cultivated an environment in which military personnel, officials, and even Russian war correspondents bypassed Shoigu and Gerasimov to present Putin their understandings...... allowing a quasi-military commander such as Prigozhin to conduct his own campaign parallel but not subordinate to the one being executed by the formal chain of command is extraordinarily unusual and badly corrosive of the authority of the formal military leadership.

Putin also established the Russian MoD as the scapegoat for all Russian military failures, which saddled Shoigu and Gerasimov with a reputation for incompetence and failure that they are unlikely to repair.

Ukrainian officials indicated that extensive Russian minefields and shortages of Western mine clearing equipment have slowed the pace of Ukrainian advances in the counteroffensive.

@jgw [ yes, you were on the right track] The Washington Post reported on July 15 that Russian forces heavily mined areas between five and 16 kilometers behind the frontline in Zaporizhia Oblast, which has slowed Ukrainian advances and forced Ukrainian forces to conduct ground attacks with infantry rather than Western kit.[53] An unnamed Ukrainian officer told the Washington Post that Russian forces have prioritized destroying more advanced mine-clearing systems over Leopard tanks.[54] An unnamed senior Ukrainian official told the Washington Post that Ukraine received less than 15 percent of the quantity of mine clearing and engineering material it requested ahead of the counteroffensive with some equipment arriving only last week

Ukraine Invasion: Part 43
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 17/07/2023 11:04

Kyiv Independent Telegram

Governor of Russia's Belgorod Oblast Vyacheslav Gladkov said on Telegram on July 17 that a man and a woman were killed and a child was reportedly injured as a result of explosions on the Crimean Bridge. https://kyivindependent.com/russian-media-two-injured-after-crimean-bridge-explosions/

The explosion on the Crimean Bridge on July 17 may have been a planned provocation by Russia because of its reluctance to continue the Black Sea Grain Initiative, Southern Operational Command spokesperson Natalia Humeniuk said https://kyivindependent.com/military-crimea-bridge-attack-possible-provocation-connected-to-grain-deal/

Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Maliar reported on July 16 that the situation along the eastern front line had escalated, with Ukrainian troops gradually advancing in the Bakhmut direction but on the defensive near the Kupiansk direction. https://kyivindependent.com/military-update-situation-in-east-escalates/

⚡️Defense Ministry: Ukraine liberates https://kyivindependent.com/defense-ministry-ukraine-liberates-7-km-square-near-bakhmut-within-week/ almost 18 square kilometers within week

⚡️Official: US to let European countries train Ukrainian pilots on F-16s. https://kyivindependent.com/sullivan-says-us-to-allow-european-countries-f-16-training-for-ukrainian-pilots-provides-no-timeframe/

Governor of Russia's Belgorod Oblast Vyacheslav Gladkov said on Telegram on July 17 that a man and a woman were killed and a child was reportedly injured as a result of explosions on the Crimean Bridge.

⚡️Military: Ukrainian forces advance over 1 kilometer in Berdiansk direction. https://kyivindependent.com/military-ukrainian-forces-advance-more-than-1-kilometer-in-berdiansk-direction/

⚡️General Staff: Russia attacks https://kyivindependent.com/general-staff-russia-strikes-shells-dozens-of-settlements-in-6-oblasts/dozens of settlements in 6 oblasts.

⚡️ Russian forces in occupied (https://kyivindependent.com/russian-forces-in-occupied-zaporizhzhia-oblast-withhold-medicine-to-residents-who-refuse-russian-passports/) Zaporizhzhia Oblast withhold medicine to residents who refuse Russian passports.

Tamila Tasheva, President Volodymyr Zelensky's permanent representative for Crimea, told Newsweek on July 16 that Ukraine will have to deal with an estimated 500,000 to 800,000 Russian citizens who came illegally to Crimea after annexation. https://kyivindependent.com/official-collaborators-in-occupied-crimea-to-be-punished/

⚡️Trump claims he could get Zelensky, Putin to make peace deal ‘in one day’. https://kyivindependent.com/trump-claims-he-could-get-zelensky-putin-to-make-peace-deal-in-one-day/ [again]

Higher personnel losses, over 20 artillery again and 4 MLRS. I wonder what the 11 'special equipment' is.
Ragnar Gudmundsson
[email protected]i
HIGHLIGHTS FOR JUL 17:
■ Strikes up between days, engagements down
■ Troop & equipment losses well above 7-day average
■ Double-digit artillery, vehicle & special equipment losses
■ Oryx: 62:12/net change to totals

Ukraine Invasion: Part 43
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 17/07/2023 11:18

UNITED24 Media Telegram

Russia has announced the termination of the "grain agreement", the Russian media reported [this is serious for Africa and other countries].

Training of Ukrainian pilots for F-16 flights in EU countries may begin in a couple of weeks, — White House

The National Anti-Terrorist Committee of the Russian Federation stated that the shelling of the Crimean Bridge "was carried out at 03:05 by two Ukrainian drones." Criminal proceedings have been opened under the article "Terrorism."

Russia shot down #MH17 nine years ago, killing all 298 people aboard. Russia lied about the tragedy for years in order to dodge accountability, until the Dutch trial established the truth. We mourn the MH17 victims and reiterate that accountability for past and present Russian crimes is inevitable.

Assistant to the US president for national security Jake Sullivan said that Ukraine will become a member of NATO, and this is not subject to discussion.

Since the beginning of the year, Ukraine has received $23 billion in aid to cover the budget deficit, Prime Minister Denys Shmyhal said.
He added that the primary direction of spending remains security and defense. This is about half of all budget funds. In second place are social programs.

In connection with the destruction of the span of the Crimean Bridge, the work of the ferry service between the occupied peninsula and the Krasnodar Territory of the Russian Federation was stopped, as well as the movement of trains on the bridge, — the Russian Media

Disruption of the "grain agreement" will cost Russia dearly, the White House said.

President Biden has instructed the Pentagon to work on replenishing ammunition stocks, which have decreased amid aid to Ukraine, the president's national security advisor Jake Sullivan told CNN in an interview.

Dmytro Kuleba begins a working visit to the UN headquarters in New York
▫️Today, he will take part in the ministerial meeting of the UN Security Council regarding Russia's aggression against Ukraine and a high-level event for the 25th anniversary of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
▫️On July 18, he will speak at the UN General Assembly debate on the situation in the temporarily occupied territories of Ukraine
▫️The program of the visit also includes a series of bilateral negotiations with foreign colleagues, the leadership of the UN Development Program, and a meeting with a group of permanent representatives of African states at the UN

Currently, there are approximately 42,000 women actively serving in the Ukrainian Armed Forces, with 5,000 women serving directly on the frontlines.

Crimean bridge.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 43
Ukraine Invasion: Part 43
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 17/07/2023 11:27

Live: Ukraine Telegram

❗️Night attack on the Crimean bridge was a special operation of the SBU and the Navy, sources told Ukrayinska Pravda
The bridge was attacked using surface drones. The source noted that it was difficult to reach the bridge, but eventually they managed to do so.

❗️❗️The so-called head of Crimea, Aksyonov, asked residents and visitors to "refrain from traveling across the Crimean bridge and choose an alternative overland route through the new regions for safety reasons."

A multi-kilometer traffic jam has formed in front of the entrance to the Crimean bridge.
Now police officers are turning away all those wishing to drive across the bridge. [I wonder if that means people are wishing to leave, or still to come to Crimea]

Judging by a latest video, the Russians have converted a shopping center into a UAV production facility
Therefore, it becomes more understandable why shopping malls burn in Russia from time to time [mind you, fire control quality seems to be variable and some will be pure accident].

Scale of production of ZALA Lancet drone in Russia
According to Russian media, they have tripled production

The flag of PMC "Wagner" was raised at the border between Russia and Belarus

This is how farmers harvest their crops near the occupied territories. Nikopol district

Ukraine Invasion: Part 43
Ukraine Invasion: Part 43
Ukraine Invasion: Part 43
Igotjelly · 17/07/2023 12:02

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 16/07/2023 13:33

An upbeat article from Daniel Hannan in The Telegraph, can't see any Russian government agreeing to denuclearisation but one can dream!

Take away Russia’s nuclear weapons – for Putin is finished and his country may soon collapse

The Soviet Union’s successors were never made to accept the fact of defeat. Whoever comes after Putin must be forced to demilitarise

Vladimir Putin is finished. You can see the bleak despair behind his high, sullen, surgically-enhanced cheekbones. He looks, to use an old word, fey. The shadow is upon him.
He might struggle on for a few more weeks, even months. But the aura of invincibilityy on which his regime rested has gone. Potential successors are manoeuvring openly. Big companies are building private armies. Whole regions of Russia are laying the ground for independence referendums. Army officers speak openly against the leadershipp.
Events are taking on a momentum of their own. Once the oligarchs and generals begin to plan for a succession, to hold tentative conversations, to identify their preferred candidates, there is no going back. Putin, who understands the psychology of fear better than most men, feels his authority flooding awayy_.
The only thing that could have saved him, a military victory in Ukraine, is out of reachh_. I don’t mean only that his original objective of regime change in Kyiv is a distant memory. Even a secondary, face-saving goal, such as establishing full control over the four oblasts which he declared to be Russian following Stalin-style votes in September, is now unachievable.

Indeed, the terms that were being discussed in Minsk, and which Volodymyr Zelensky seemed to be contemplating as late as April of last year, are definitively off the table. There is no way that Kyiv could settle for the de facto independence of its eastern provinces under notional Ukrainian suzerainty. The best Russia can hope for is an eventual referendum under international supervision in a demilitarised Crimea following Kyiv’s reabsorption of the Donbas – a crushing defeat by any standard.
Could Putin be holding out in the hope of a Republican victory at next year’s US elections? Donald Trump has a hideous soft spot for the Russian autocratt_, going so far during his presidency as to say that he believed Putin over his own security agencies. Other Republicans, while not pro-Putin, have none the less declared that they won’t fund another “forever war”.
But the whole question is irrelevant, for it presupposes that Russia’s demoralised troops could hold out for another 18 months.
In practice, it will be over before then. Sure, Ukraine has not repeated the lightning gains it made last August, but that was never going to happen. Russia has entrenched along a line which includes a belt of landmines three miles deep. To dislodge an army from such a position takes time.
The initial step, as during the first Gulf war, is to degrade the enemy’s infrastructure through bombardment – a process that cannot be hurried. In the meantime, Ukraine is probing for weak points, keeping the Russians guessing as to where the main assault will come, all the time turning up the pressure.
There is, in theory, a short-cut. Prigozhin’s march on Moscoww showed the world how poorly defended Russia is. Ukraine could launch a massive left hook through Kursk, aiming to cut off the enemy’s forces. But most of Ukraine’s Western weaponss were supplied on the basis that they would not be used on foreign soil. To quote Admiral Roland from Where Eagles Dare, “There are certain, ah, niceties to be observed in our relationship with our allies.”
So Ukraine is left with the option of grinding Russia down – not by hurling conscripts at guns, but by the intelligent use of advanced missiles, drones, satellites and, if they arrive, F16s. The only question is whether there will be regime change in Moscow first, or whether there will be a 1917-style Russian collapse along a section of the front.
In the latter scenario – that is, in the event that Russia’s boyars have not already deposed Putin – Ukraine will break through, cut off Crimea and kettle the large Russian garrison there. With only the fragile link of the Kerch bridge, Russia will not be able to relieve the peninsula. Ukraine will choke off supplies of food, water and electricity, invite the Red Cross to evacuate civilians, and wait for the Russian surrenderr_.
If we can foresee these things, so can Russia’s elites. The oligarchs and siloviki know that Putin is leading them to ruin – national ruin and personal ruin. They know that, with every day that passes, the price that will be exacted from them rises. They will move sooner rather than later.
This is the context of Prigozhin’s mutiny. It is in the nature of these things that we have few solid facts. It is far from clear that Prigozhin or his men have relocated to Belaruss_. We cannot say why they halted when Moscow lay naked before them. We don’t know what deals were done.
But we do know that Wagner launched an armed rebellion, and we can reasonably assume that Prigozhin was at least acting in concert with forces which wanted change.
Last week, Igor Girkinn_, a former officer and FSB agent who played a key role in the annexation of Crimea and the Donbas, was reported to have suggested that the people behind the Wagner rising were a faction of oligarchs headed by Yuri Kovalchuk, reputedly Putin’s personal banker, and the energy magnates Arkady and Boris Rotenberg.
He seems to believe that these men aimed to weaken Putin rather than to bring him down, because they did not want him to be succeeded by a hard man such as Nikolai Patrushev. The theory goes that they used the insurrection to wring concessions from the weakened dictator in preparation for a later handover to a junta that would seek peace and protect their business interests.
We have no way of knowing whether this is right. But we do know that all sides are limbering up for a bloody interregnum, a Time of Troubles like that which preceded the accession of the Romanovs in 1613. The balance of opposed factions has broken down, the Tsar has lost all authority, and Russia faces the prospect of warlordismm_.
To some Western analysts, these things are terrifying. They conjure the prospect of ongoing civil war, or of local magnates acquiring nuclear stockpiles. But it is no more in the West’s power to hold the Russian Federation together than it was to hold the USSR together – something American and European diplomats foolishly tried to do in 1990.
What is in the West’s power, as some Russian dissidents are now arguing, is to push for denuclearisationn_, both of any breakaway republics as the price for recognition, and of the rump state around Moscow and St Petersburg.
Such a state – let’s call it Muscovy – would have few options. Its assets would have been seized for reparations, its citizens barred from overseas travel, its natural resources lost with the secession of various republics. Its choice would be to become an ill-tempered Eurasian khanate, a kind of nuclear Kazakhstan, or to embrace the free world, as West Germany did under Konrad Adenauer.
As with West Germany, the prize would be economic recovery as part of the Euro-Atlantic world. And, as with West Germany, the price would be demilitarisation – including, in this case, the destruction of nuclear weapons, possibly as part of a reduction of global stocks.
After 1990, Russia was never made to accept either the fact of its defeat or the nature of the crimes it had committed over the previous seven decades. This time, things will be different.

Mark Galeotti has an interesting Twitter thread addressing this article (copied below for ease but link is here (Mark Galeotti on Twitter: "This is a particularly bad take, epitomising a dangerous kind of triumphalism that also does Ukraine no favours. A short thread 1/ Take away Russia’s nuclear weapons – for Putin is finished and his country may soon collapse t.co/u5oFFcqG8i" / Twitter)

  1. This is a particularly bad take, epitomising a dangerous kind of triumphalism that also does Ukraine no favours. A short thread Take away Russia’s nuclear weapons – for Putin is finished and his country may soon collapse
  2. "Vladimir Putin is finished... He might struggle on for a few more weeks, even months." What possible evidence is there for assuming there could be regime change in weeks?
  3. The answer: "Potential successors are manoeuvring openly. Big companies are building private armies. Whole regions of Russia are laying the ground for independence referendums." Yet none of this is true...
  4. No one is openly setting themselves up as a contender; the merc forces in question are paid for by corporations but not controlled by them - it is really just a way to make them pay for army recruitment; and no one is preparing for independence. This is all nonsense.
  5. Putin's hopes of salvaging any kind of victory are, apparently, zero, even if Trump is elected, as "it presupposes that Russia’s demoralised troops could hold out for another 18 months... In practice, it will be over before then." Not could but will.
  6. Indeed, "Prigozhin’s march on Moscow showed ... how poorly defended Russia is. Ukraine could launch a massive left hook through Kursk, aiming to cut off the enemy’s forces." Never mind that all those troops willing to see what happened then would likely fight an actual invader
  7. As is, "The only question is whether there will be regime change in Moscow first, or whether there will be a 1917-style Russian collapse along a section of the front." No other options, no chance of a continued stalemate or slow Russian retreat. Not exciting enough.
  8. So "all sides are limbering up for a bloody interregnum, a Time of Troubles like that which preceded the accession of the Romanovs in 1613. The balance of opposed factions has broken down, the Tsar has lost all authority, and Russia faces the prospect of warlordism."
  9. Some might fear that, but not the columnist: "What is in the West’s power, as some Russian dissidents are now arguing, is to push for denuclearisation, both of any breakaway republics as the price for recognition, and of the rump state around Moscow and St Petersburg."
  10. "Such a state – let’s call it Muscovy – would have few options... Its choice would be to become an ill-tempered Eurasian khanate, a kind of nuclear Kazakhstan, or to embrace the free world, as West Germany did under Konrad Adenauer."
  11. Look I understand newspaper punditry, I do my share: you need to have something to say, and often the more exciting the better. It may seem foolish to be exercised by one more transitory piece of ill-informed nonsense. But, I do have some reasons to consider this dangerous:
  12. First, it is triumphalist. If we start to assume the war will be over relatively soon, we calibrate our policies to match. No need to build long-term ammo stocks, etc, because the Russkies will be folding soon, huzzah! Dangerous short-termism.
  13. It also means that, if the war does drag on, then the backlash is all the greater. Expectation management matters, especially in a fractious coalition where 'Ukraine fatigue' is a real thing. Those who want to push Kyiv into a bad peace are empowered by dashed high hopes.
  14. It's all based on a crass and inaccurate notion of the dynamics going on in Russia, and presupposes a break-up (and subsequent weakening) that is far from likely, or even plausible. Just how would/could Russia be forced into denuclearisation?
  15. The parallel is with the West German economic miracle - are we really likely to be offering massive and generous economic assistance in return for that denuclearisation? At the very time we are helping Ukraine rebuild? I hardly think so.
  16. Finally, although I agree that we need to be thinking about the shape of post-war (and post-Putin) relations with Russia, it rests on what one could almost call a colonial notion of Western power. All this plays to Putin's propaganda and sets us up by overstating our power..
...understating Russian agency. We need (a) to think beyond the war, yes but (b) realistically + (c) with a real sense of the real Russia.
  1. If we assume Putin will soon lose everything + we will be able to define Russia's very shape, we are setting ourselves up for failure.

https://twitter.com/MarkGaleotti/status/1680523752449228802

BezMills · 17/07/2023 12:37

I hope (would pray if that was my style) that Putin's duffel coat does indeed rest upon a shoogly peg. He can't off-fuck soon enough. Interesting times, he does seem weak, and for want of a better word, gettable, in a way that he never has before. Guy has been in charge for over 2 decades and until less than 2 years ago, seemed untouchable. Now, touchable.

PerkingFaintly · 17/07/2023 12:42

That's really interesting, @Igotjelly .

I recognised the name Daniel Hannan as one labelled "highly untrustworthy" somewhere in my subconscious, but when I checked his Wikipedia entry couldn't work out why. (He was a founder of Vote Leave, but that on its own wouldn't be the reason.)

Because my impression was nebulous I didn't bother mentioning it here, and also, well, who was I too quash his piece?

So now I'm fascinated to see the piece being taken apart on its own merits as potentially dangerous to Ukraine.

I'm not suggesting Hannan is propagating Kremlin-originated views. But perhaps his highly simplistic (= untainted by complex reality) worldview is at play here.

His Wikipedia page includes a quote by a journalist that:
"Hannan has the constant tra-la-la effusiveness of a man forever on his way home from choral evensong at an Oxford college. There is a sense from all of them of living out a caricature. None of them thinks they have signed up for the narrow version of nationalism written in blood."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Hannan

Clearly current history is being written in blood, but any worldview rooted in a subconscious and unexamined belief in British Imperial Supremacism is fated to be false – and to doom us to dreadful failure.

Daniel Hannan - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Hannan

PerkingFaintly · 17/07/2023 13:02

Yes, absolutely agree @BezMills that Putin is weak now. Very touchable.

I just don't go with the happy clappy triumphalism of Hannan.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 17/07/2023 14:11

I'd like to think Hannan's article was spot on, but sadly it is definitely overly optimistic and I agree with the refutation that 'it falls into a colonial notion of Western power. All this plays to Putin's propaganda and sets us up by overstating our power..' although I couldn't have articulated this so eloquently.

Similarly I'd like to think the many references to the Russian army's command chain break downs and morale issues in todays key takeaways signal the beginning of the end of this conflict, but the fact remains that Russia is attacking and making gains on some fronts.

TheABC · 17/07/2023 14:15

Even if the war ended tomorrow, we are still looking at a very long, drawn-out peace process. Ukraine would (rightly) distrust Russia for a long time to come and then there's the clear-up, healing and reunification of Donbas/Crimea. It took Germany over 2 trillion and 24 years to do the same with their country and they had some major advantages to start with. It's also worth remembering that the last British Forces army base in Germany (left over from the Cold War) did not close until 2019.

I'm not suggesting anyone needs to bolster Ukraine, but we need to be thinking in decades, not years for support.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 17/07/2023 14:41

The biggest problems once peace comes is what to do with Donbas / Luhansk people who support Russia, and the mines. No easy answers, specially to the first.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2023 14:42

Daniel Hannan is a proper fuckwit who doesn't understand much.

'Simplistic world' view covers it well.

notimagain · 17/07/2023 14:49

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2023 14:42

Daniel Hannan is a proper fuckwit who doesn't understand much.

'Simplistic world' view covers it well.

...I was trying to come up with something that encapsulated my feelings about him but I won't now because that'll do nicely...

PerkingFaintly · 17/07/2023 14:58

notimagain · 17/07/2023 14:49

...I was trying to come up with something that encapsulated my feelings about him but I won't now because that'll do nicely...

+1 Grin

Could have saved myself the bother!

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 17/07/2023 15:24

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 17/07/2023 09:29

who shouldn't really be private messaging me either, which hardly helped.

What a lie.

I have not messaged you. This is an outright lie.

Never.

You are posting in bad faith. No doubt now you're not posting in good faith.

STFU and fuck off.

I was wrong.

No messages were showing on my in box, but Mumsnet confirm that I had messaged them and there's been been a short conversation back in May. I have a medical memory problem that at times causes real problems.

No matter how negative and iffy this poster is, it's clear that I'm in too deep and need to back off a while. @1dayatatime pointed it out a while back too and I bit someone else's head off. Ill carry on with the roundups, but other than that, time for a break.

PerkingFaintly · 17/07/2023 15:28

Flowers @ReleaseTheDucksOfWar

You absolutely deserve a break.

Your roundups are amazing, and I'll love it if you keep doing them, but if you need a break from those too then do whatever you need.

Look after yourself.BrewCake

Igotjelly · 17/07/2023 15:36

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 17/07/2023 15:24

I was wrong.

No messages were showing on my in box, but Mumsnet confirm that I had messaged them and there's been been a short conversation back in May. I have a medical memory problem that at times causes real problems.

No matter how negative and iffy this poster is, it's clear that I'm in too deep and need to back off a while. @1dayatatime pointed it out a while back too and I bit someone else's head off. Ill carry on with the roundups, but other than that, time for a break.

Think we can safely say you’ve done more than pulled your weight and deserve a break 💙💛

heldinadream · 17/07/2023 15:48

@ReleaseTheDucksOfWar weirdly - I don't post much but I do follow - I was thinking earlier what an utterly immense contribution you've been making to these threads and wondering if by now you had enough material digested to write a book! You are obviously in very, very deep. Because you care.
So whatever kind of break you have, I'd like to say thanks and wish you well and hope you get some VERY well deserved rest. 💗

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 17/07/2023 15:48

Flowers@ReleaseTheDucksOfWar
You do such a lot for us; if you need a rest, take it! I think we'll all be wishing you well even if you have to go away completely for a bit and we miss the roundups, which (in case I haven't said recently) are amazing and useful.

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