Beyond Titan - physics and the deep sea

[TokyoStories]

Continuing our crash course in all things deep-sea.

Hi Mavis, has this been shown? I assumed the platform came off as part of the implosion of the carbon fibre cylinder.

James Cameron, who is heavily involved in the deep sea exploration commmunity, says he has been told the crew knew there was a problem, and had ditched their weights in an attempt to return to the surface.

It may or may not be true, but I’m sure all will become clear once the official investigation has concluded.

Thanks @Doris86 I assumed that on a “normal” dive they would ditch the weights at the end to rise but that the landing platform would come back up, I don’t know, though!

I read that article from the New Yorker you posted @MavisMcMinty. That’s just shocking stuff. If it’s true that he litigated against a professional raising concerns to get him to shut up that’s abominable.

slightly concerned about some of the legal commentary. In the Uk (law degree from 20+ years ago) case law would mean that the intent of your set up would matter not just the words you used. I’m surprised that they’re saying that calling the paying clients ‘mission specialists’ and their financial contributions ‘donations’ would actually get around the fact that they are fee paying passengers. Is US law very different?

i know it matters nothing to them now they aren’t here, but it will impact the surviving families of those treated so recklessly.

I’d assume this meant that they were hoping that would be the legal effect by using “mission specialist” instead of “passenger” - but I guess as no one had actually died at that point, it hadn’t been properly tested (i.e. in a court of law). So I suppose that’s one of the things they’ll look at as part of the investigation.
But yes, I’d expect that, just because you use a particular word to describe something, it doesn’t mean that it actually is, legally, that word.

@MavisMcMinty I think you can tell Rush was an absolute knob by how he looks in that photo.
I'm trying to work out what it is. The over-coiffed hair thats a bit too long, the superior expression, don't know but there is definitely something about his look that really creeps me out as being just not quite right.

I think it was mentioned in the New Yorker article I linked at the bottom of page 10, Sheila. I’d closed the tab when I linked it, which is why I didn’t go back and clarify it was the landing platform. Something was jettisoned so they could go back up to the surface, so it sounds like they knew something had gone wrong before the hub imploded.

Some words are protected by law in certain industries, certainly in the UK-I don't know about the US.
E.G you can't advertise for 'staff' if the job is freelance, you can't create a course and call it a diploma unless it meets certain requirements, I guessed that 'Mission Specialist' meant they are part of the crew, rather than guests-thus shirking some legal responsibility?

Ah, gotcha! Maybe the comms were lost slightly before the implosion and they dropped the weights to go back up.

And I suppose so many of the previous trips had also had to be aborted that the passengers/“mission specialists” might not have been too concerned about it, especially if Rush had kept up the lofty “nothing can go wrong, I’m an engineering genius” bullshit.

Just finished watching 'Take me to Titanic' on iPlayer. Many thoughts, which I will come back to, but the one that struck me the most was how.... obsessed certain people seem to be about the Titanic. And that if it had been their lifelong dream to see it, maybe they wouldn't be as put off by dodgy safety standards as your average Joe?

Take the French woman. She admitted that she hadn't got married or had kids BECAUSE of her plans to visit the wreck. A tad unhealthy to obsess to that level, methinks.

@SirQuintusAureliusMaximus I'm a great believer in 'not judging a book by it's cover' but it is certainly a pose designed to convey a particular impression. Even if the camera had been a few inches higher so it was 'level' but no, SR is 'looking down on' the camera ('s subjects). It seems clear that he had personality traits that allowed him to treat his 'mission specialists' as guineapigs, even to the extent of quite casually remarking about the safety of his craft & therefore their risk of death. I appreciate that certain character traits are likely to be more prominent in those who break boundaries, ie Musk, Jobs etc but for those involved in outer or deepsea spacecraft eg Branson & SR here safety is critical.

I think this tragedy will prevent any other arrogant megalomaniac being allowed to do anything like it, so that’s good.

In the New Yorker article, when warned by expert friends of the likelihood of implosion, Nargeolet - who had lost his wife and really missed her - said it was a good way to die, and wasn’t worried by that. And as deaths go there are many thousands worse than that, so I kind of get his nonchalance.

These two passages from different articles are interesting in relation to the very experienced co-pilot PH Nargeolet

The first is from a travel writer who went with the intention of going on a dive in May but didn't because conditions etc didn't permit.

https://www.travelweekly.com/North-America-Travel/Mission-Titanic-part-3

Between the wind, waves, fog, platform issues (the platform and sub tipped on another day, though not as precariously and was righted more quickly), the knowledge that the sub was made from carbon fiber that could not be certified to be used on aircraft and with endless checklist items that needed to be tended, you might wonder why I was still willing to go on a dive if it were offered.

Reading that paragraph, I wonder myself. But the answer, in the moment, was the presence of P.H. Nargeolet. I felt that if such an experienced wreck diver and explorer, who had seen and understood so much more than I did, was comfortable going down in the Titan, then I could be, too.

The second is from the New Yorker article that @MavisMcMinty linked above:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/the-titan-submersible-was-an-accident-waiting-to-happen

Lahey was the C.E.O. of Triton Submarines (which had designed and built the Limiting Factor submersible that the marine-classification society DNV had certified “maximum permissible diving depth” as “unlimited.

“I had a conversation with P. H. just as recently as a few months ago,” Lahey told me. “I kept giving him shit for going out there. I said, ‘P. H., by you being out there, you legitimize what this guy’s doing. It’s a tacit endorsement. And, worse than that, I think he’s using your involvement with the project, and your presence on the site, as a way to fucking lure people into it.’ ”
Nargeolet replied that he was getting old. He was a grieving widower, and, as he told people several times in recent years, “if you have to go, that would be a good way. Instant.”
“I said, ‘O.K., so you’re ready to fucking die? Is that what it is, P. H.?’ ” Lahey recalled. “And he said, ‘No, no, but I figure that, maybe if I’m out there, I can help them avoid a tragedy.’ But instead he found himself right in the fucking center of a tragedy. And he didn’t deserve to go that way.”

Thanks, @SirQuintusAureliusMaximus , how interesting to see those remarks side by side.

@MavisMcMinty - that New Yorker article. Ye Gods.

I know!

I read that, @SirQuintusAureliusMaximus . I found it sad that PH Nargeolet, who was still grieving may have been quite fatalistic and nonchalant about the trip, yet others were trusting that his presence connotated that this must be okay. I am now thinking what other scenarios that kind of logic could apply to.

Immediately my brain went to 'I'm here, there's NOTHING to worry about!' in the Rocky Horror Picture show but that's me! In seriousness-e.g. People who are afraid of flying, they're often told to look about the plane-there's probably one person on there who isn't looking as if they'll die anytime soon.

People's presence equating to safety and sometimes it just isn't valid

People's presence equating to safety and sometimes it just isn't valid

I suppose this is a powerful life lesson. That you can never ever know why someone is where they are doing what they do. And it is a mistake to assume or rely on a person's presence anywhere indicating a positive judgment

Their motivation could be anything from money to egoism to depressed death wish.

I hope I remember this for the rest of my life.

It's so true isn't it. A weird, queer thing but so valid. We've no idea-life is full of such assumptions. He's this so he must be that. She does this so she must be feeling this way-often far from the case

Nearly three weeks after its submersible vessel Titan imploded, killing all five people on board, OceanGate is suspending all exploration and commercial operations.

The organization posted on its website on Thursday that it would no longer be sending individuals down to the wreckage of the Titanic, or elsewhere.

https://apple.news/A52wKWJOUSt6GnJbNrTK2_A

Oh no! How disappointing for all the people queueing to get into Oceangate’s next wacky rule-defying submersible.

To descend is fine you work with gravity. To go forward and back on the sea bed - yes you need more than in air as water resistance is higher than air resistance. To overcome gravity, unbalance the forces and bring a large mass up - you need a lot of energy!

I wonder what they'll do with Cyclops 1...

The organization posted on its website on Thursday that it would no longer be sending individuals down to the wreckage of the Titanic, or elsewhere.

You don't say. The shock and surprise.