Beyond Titan - physics and the deep sea

[TokyoStories]

Continuing our crash course in all things deep-sea.

Glueing 2 different materials together and then taking them down to 3800 m is an "interesting" thing to do.

Yes - virtue-signalling nonsense.

And he sounds so gleeful. Awful man.

Well, the titanium itself would be. But his whole weight went onto it as the nose tipped downwards into the water. And it was glued to the body of the sub...

Anyway, who knows what exact parts failed. I am glad it is being investigated.

I've watched a documentary about the Edmund Fitzgerald yesterday due to my unearthed interest in maritime accidents. They've always fascinated me.

Me too. I haven't seen this - what was it called? worth watching @milkyaqua ?

You might enjoy an internet wormhole trip into the world of rogue waves

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave

and oil rigs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_Ranger

I also really enjoyed (if that's the right word - thought it was good anyway) In the Heart of the Sea which is a film based on the sinking of the Essex (which Moby Dick was based on) which you might like if you are on a maritime accident spiral.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex_(whaleship)

@milkyaqua yes, that's exactly what I mean. I mean, I am a relatively intelligent person, but that's it. I am not an engineer or oceanographer & know only slightly more than any random person does about it (much of that to do with reading these threads!) BUT this seems like the realm of common sense, to not glue things together that need to be STRONG, and to withstand such pressures?

I like to think a year 6 science lesson could find children with the sense to understand that. Much younger children 'get' that if a toy breaks and is glued back together, it won't be as strong as it was before and to play carefully with it.

What was this man playing at?! I agree with a PP that psychopathy (I know that's an outdated word) or narcissism could have played large parts in his aggrandising of himself and his abilities-just not careful enough because that would prevent his notoriety and innovation-and others knowing him for it.

I guess yes, it could have been something else that caused this disaster-but that seems a likely contender for it.

@SirQuintusAureliusMaximus thank you for the new rabbit-hole! I am out today but that's definitely on my to watch list.

Watch the collapsing can and see how quick it is and then x 400 - no feasible warning system in play. One you get a crack - gone. Trust me I have literally failed materials as my phD - millions of joints eg aluminium to aluminium caused them to fracture, examine under a microscope to find where they failed under what compression or tension or after how many hours. I did millions of them.

I know I'm being thick but I didn't realise the titanic wasn't on the bottom of the sea bed !! I didn't realise the ocean went on beyond that further down !!

I know I'm being thick but I didn't realise the titanic wasn't on the bottom of the sea bed !! I didn't realise the ocean went on beyond that further down !!

@lollipoprainbow - I'm not sure what you mean. The Titanic is on the sea bed where it sank -that's where it is resting. It's not just floating around at some random depth!

However it is right that where it is is not the deepest part of the ocean. But this just means that in different places the ocean sea bed is shallower and deeper. Just like in some places land is lower, higher or hugely mountainous.

This is a good graphic animation of what is at different depths and where - someone linked it one of the other earlier threads so can't claim credit - apologies to whoever it was that I can't find your post!

There are mountains, valleys and plains under the sea, just as there are above sea level. Parts of the Atlantic Ocean are extremely deep, and the Titanic is resting at the bottom, on the sea bed.

@Doris86

The Titan did have a warning system that listened for evidence of the structure starting to fail, supposedly giving them time to return to the surface. It’s quite possible this warning system alerted the crew to some sort of problem, a few seconds or minutes before the catastrophic event

One of the expert commentators - sorry can't remember where as I've watched so much - made the point that the system was futile because once the warning went off the failure would be almost instantaneous so there was no time to do anything.

He had some analogy like it was like warning you that a bullet had been fired at you at the point it left the gun - ie. pointless because you would be dead before you registered the warning.

and what @TheCheeseTray said above!

Interesting PhD @TheCheeseTray .

Something that is bugging me is how much power do you need to move through pressure of 400 atmospheres? or because the pressure in front of you is the same as the pressure behind you doesn't it make much difference?

In that dreadful film I watched that I linked above Underwater - they had "pressure suits" that "allowed them" to walk from one seabed facility to another. I'm guessing this is out-there sci-fi fantasy given what I've read about the need to have round bathyspheres to even out pressure distribution and that you could never have just a space suit type thing for a person that would allow them to walk around underwater.

That is a good question.
Obviously it's harder to walk through water than it is through air.

But I am not sure how much depth affects that. Floating and swimming underwater is actually really easy when you have neutral buoyancy and it doesn't take much effort to move when you are neutrally buoyant.

I don't think the depth makes too much difference to the effort as it's the density of the water that is key - and the density doesn't vary too much with depth - but I am sure someone has a better explanation.

Isn't it to do with density? You can move your hand through the air easily but if you put your hand in a pond, or the bath and try moving it you have inertia to start and then it becomes easier.

I don't think density increases as much as pressure does.

My YouTube feed is now full of videos about the Titan, videos showing the effects of implosions and people giving their views on it.

I don't think density increases as much as pressure does.

Air is very much compressible, water hardly at all..

https://www.usgs.gov/special-topics/water-science-school/science/water-compressibility#:~:text=Envision%20the%20water%20a%20mile,compresses%20less%20than%20one%20percent.

Yes obviously once a crack appears it is game over at that depth. However I believe the warning system was designed to pick up any unusual stresses to give a warning before a crack appeared.

I can't see how ANY warning would be of any help, unless it gave you the 2.5 hours needed to get back up to the surface?

That was the intention of the designers of the Titan, that enough warning could be given for the submersible to return to the surface.

Clearly it didn’t work in this case. However it leaves open the possibility the crew might have had a few seconds warning that something wasn’t quite right.

I see, that makes a lot more sense! I was thinking they meant they'd have like 20 mins warning which would be of no use at all

It's disturbing that they may have known it was going to happen, even a few seconds before if they heard creaking/cracking or other untoward noises.

It's just such a frightening concept. A Tiktoker has put a tiktok up with a film clip showing an underwater implosion. It would have been a lot quicker for the Titan, but It's so scary. I don't know what film It's from https://www.tiktok.com/@yezzy411/video/7247723934957735210

https://www.reddit.com/r/OceanGateTitan/comments/14pf9r8/a_former_oceangate_advisor_said_the_titanic/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
So we're now thinking they did get a time frame of knowing they were in serious trouble? Not necessarily a reliable source.

This is a good article - horrifying, but thorough. The hubris!

https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/the-titan-submersible-was-an-accident-waiting-to-happen

I think the sub had already ditched its (?)landing platform to get back up to the surface when it imploded, so they probably did know something was wrong beforehand, although their actual death would have been instantaneous and unknowing.