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Ukraine Invasion: Part 42

986 replies

MagicFox · 24/06/2023 13:32

Setting this up early given the speed of current events

**

  1. The agreed purpose of the thread is for the sharing of information and commentary on current events
  1. If you post a link please tell us where it leads/give a precis of the content
  1. Discussion and debate is welcome, but please keep it respectful
OP posts:
Thread gallery
145
MissConductUS · 27/06/2023 19:09

Mb76, sorry to hear about your covid case. If you really feel poorly, ask your doctor to prescribe one of the covid specific antiviral medications. My whole family had covid last Christmas. DH and I felt much better within 24 hours after taking molnupiravir. The kids weren't that sick so skipped it.

Mb76 · 27/06/2023 19:31

TheABC · 27/06/2023 19:04

I often wonder if Russia's sheer size militates against social change. People are spread out - Moscow and St Petersburg from the provinces and Russia itself from everywhere else. Just 9 people per km across the country compared to 48 per km for India or 153 km for China. That plus a repressive state media and centuries of inertia do not help.

Absolutely. I follow a Telegram channel called “Hello Doctor - War Letters” where mostly Ukrainians write to, but sometimes Russians. it was started by doctor Komarovsky in the first days of war. He is a famous paediatrician who started doing video blogs in the first days of the war like many other Ukrainian celebrities. People started writing in response and he opened a channel where these letters are published. Less often these days, and he no longer does video blogs related to war, just his usual medical ones. But the letters are still published.

Anyhow, this is what someone from the Urals region wrote regarding the reaction on last Saturday events (this is my translation as the channel is in Russian/ Ukrainian)

“From a dude in Russia

hello dear doctor

i would like to tell you how people felt about Prigozhins coup in the deep Russia, the Urals

They felt nothing. It was a weekend, people were resting, having fun outside. There was a live concert at the town square. I deliberately paid attention and did not meet a single militia man. So what if the bandits captured two cities with a million population each? Who cares?

i don’t know of this is good news or bad news. On the one hand, these people in their majority, are not going to fight for their freedom. If (when) Putin is crucified in the Red Square, perhaps a couple of passers by will take some selfies, will keep on walking by about their business. Somewhere nearby there will be a concert or a local blini eating competition or something else …

I don’t know what this is. A learned helplessness? I think, all of us here need to be (medically) treated. Only, I’m afraid, there is no such a doctor who would risk taking this upon themselves

I wish you all the speediest of victories, and I now have no doubts at all, that it will happen. I just hope that it would be achieved with as small a price as possible”

MissConductUS · 27/06/2023 19:35

The Telegraph has more about the intelligence the US had and shared with the UK about the coup plot. Separately, the WSJ reported that Putin is threatening to investigate Prigozhin for corruption (no, really).

British spies had ‘extremely detailed picture’ of Wagner’s mutiny plans - US shared intelligence about where and how the mercenaries planned to move

27 June 2023 • 11:40am

British officials had “an extremely detailed and accurate picture” of Wagner chief Yevgeny Prigozhin’s mutiny plans before his troops began to advance, according to reports.

The details were shared by US intelligence officials ahead of the short-lived insurrection, and contained information of where and how Wagner Group mercenaries planned to move.

Britain was one of the few allied countries to be handed the details, as Washington avoided circulating its reports to a wider group of Nato allies.

The intelligence, according to CNN, was kept so secret within the US that it was only briefed to the most senior officials and the so-called “Group of Eight” members of Congress, who have access to highly sensitive intelligence details.
“It was an extremely tight hold,” a source said.

The secrecy of the information was blamed for US and European officials being caught off guard when Prigozhin seized control of Rostov-on-Don in southern Russia before marching toward Moscow, other sources said.

Some Nato officials have expressed frustration that the intelligence was not shared in advance of the attempted mutiny, which eventually fizzled out after an agreement to end it.

Ukraine was also kept in the dark amid fears the information could be leaked to adversaries listening into calls between Washington and Kyiv.

Separately, Kyiv was urged not to launch strikes within Russia during the rebellion amid fears it could trigger an escalation in the conflict by Moscow, a Western official told CNN.

“The message was don’t rock the boat here,” the official said.

“Ukrainians were being cautioned by allies not to provoke the situation. Make hay of opportunities on Ukrainian territory but don’t get drawn into internal matters or strike at offensive military assets inside of Russia.”

After the attempted mutiny was launched, Joe Biden, the US president, was keen to stress that the US or other Nato allies had played no role in trying to oust Vladimir Putin’s most senior military officials.

Washington had been tracking Prigozhin’s mounting feud with the Russian defence ministry for many months.

Intelligence officials picked up information that his Wagner mercenaries were stockpiling weapons and ammunition leading up to the rebellion.

Democratic Senator Mark Warner, a member of the Gang of Eight, said the mutiny “was almost hiding in plain sight”.

“Putin of 10 years ago would have never allowed this to play out the way it did,” he told CNN, adding that the Russian president is “clearly weakened” by the incident.

“The fact that you have a mercenary group, that I don’t think had a full 25,000 troops the way Prigozhin claimed, but was able to literally march into Rostov, a city of a million people which was the command and control for the whole Ukrainian war, and take it over with barely a shot fired – that is unprecedented, to say the least,” Mr Warner said.

British spies had ‘extremely detailed picture’ of Wagner’s mutiny plans

US shared intelligence about where and how the mercenaries planned to move

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/27/british-spies-detailed-picture-wagner-mutiny-plans

Mb76 · 27/06/2023 19:35

@MissConductUS thank you 🤗 I’m not really poorly it’s more like a bad cold, but this is the second time I’ve had it. I’m not sure doctors in the Uk would prescribe such a medicine, or at least I’ve not heard of it

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2023 19:52

Ukraine was also kept in the dark amid fears the information could be leaked to adversaries listening into calls between Washington and Kyiv.

I do not believe that Ukraine did not have its own intelligence about Wagner's plans. If there was a concern about listening into calls between Washington and Kyiv that goes two ways.

The timing of the operational pause is too convenient.

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2023 20:07

Unconfirmed reports tonight that Ukraine have shot down a helicopter. That's in addition to the seven that Russia lost in Russia.

On that note, it appears over the weekend Ukraine DID manage to establish something of a bridgehead across the river near Kherson. Apparently Russian were madly radioing for air support which never came. Apparently there were 'communication issues'.

Whether Ukraine have managed to hold onto this bridgehead isn't entirely clear this evening. But they may have been able to get an idea of how bad things are on the ground in the area (which was flooded). There is 2 - 3kms of swamps beyond that so it's doubtful that Ukraine intended to advance further. They have been doing a lot of recon missions across the river before retreating so haven't fully committed to a full advance.

Also it's been confirmed that Rivnopil has been liberated. This village was close to the cluster of villages that were liberated the other week so this was expected. Ukraine are now 10km from the main Russian defence line in this area now. Getting through it will be a challenge. HOWEVER by all accounts there is no other Russian defence line beyond that point until Mariupol. That contrasts to Meltipol which has three defensive lines before the city.

Which brings me back to the initial point. It's been stated that one of the biggest issues the Ukrainians have had with advances is their heavy weapons are very vulnerable to airstrikes. Particularly from helicopters.

It's been a good week for Ukraine.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 27/06/2023 20:08

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2023 19:52

Ukraine was also kept in the dark amid fears the information could be leaked to adversaries listening into calls between Washington and Kyiv.

I do not believe that Ukraine did not have its own intelligence about Wagner's plans. If there was a concern about listening into calls between Washington and Kyiv that goes two ways.

The timing of the operational pause is too convenient.

Quite.

There is no way Ukraine wouldn't have known about it, and there is no way Putin wouldn't have known about it.

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2023 20:08

Melitopol sorry.

minsmum · 27/06/2023 20:42

I know we all make excuses for Russians but what I don't understand and I don't think should be forgiven is the lack of empathy. They have Ukrainian friends and family telling them what is happening to them, no thing but disbelief because they don't want to know. Then we are all supposed to feel sorry for them, they only care when it affects them.
For generations they have sat back too scared to do anything and they reap what they sow. The Ukrainians and the other Baltic states didn't get the society's they have without standing up and fighting for them, their people bleeding and dying because they believed in freedom.
I save my sympathy for them and the Syrians and the women of Iran

MissConductUS · 27/06/2023 21:04

By the way, my Russian friend is an American citizen by marriage, hates Putin and the oppression in Russia, and is very afraid that her male relatives will be conscripted.

There are lots of nice things in the American military aid package announced today, including 30 Bradley and 25 Stryker IFVs. I'll be interested in seeing which model Bradley is being supplied.

Biden Administration Announces Additional Security Assistance for Ukraine

Biden Administration Announces Additional Security Assistance for Ukraine

The DOD announced additional security assistance to meet Ukraine's critical security and defense needs. The package, valued at up to $500 million, includes key capabilities to support Ukraine's

https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3440628/biden-administration-announces-additional-security-assistance-for-ukraine

minsmum · 27/06/2023 22:32

@MissConductUS I have had so many people today tell me how sorry they are for the Russians and I was taking my bad mood out on you. I am sorry for that please accept my apologies

MissConductUS · 27/06/2023 22:41

minsmum · 27/06/2023 22:32

@MissConductUS I have had so many people today tell me how sorry they are for the Russians and I was taking my bad mood out on you. I am sorry for that please accept my apologies

No problem at all, I hadn't seen your last post while composing mine about the aid package. I just mentioned her background to add a bit of context. She is mortified about the war and has told me it will shame Russians for generations to come. So no apologies are needed at all.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 27/06/2023 23:06

Attack on Kramatorsk cafe, clearly targeted, where aid workers, journalists and families were eating. Several deaths.

DrBlackbird · 27/06/2023 23:46

Does a Prigozhin and his mercenaries based in a deserted army bade in Belarus pose an eventual threat to Kyiv?

MMBaranova · 27/06/2023 23:57

Lila Trokhymets was at the Pizzeria in Kramatorsk and has posted video from the aftermath. The target was not a random one.

Mb76 · 28/06/2023 07:08

DrBlackbird · 27/06/2023 23:46

Does a Prigozhin and his mercenaries based in a deserted army bade in Belarus pose an eventual threat to Kyiv?

Possibly. I do believe that placing them in Belarus is an evil strategic plan by Putin and Lukashenko. Even if Wagner don’t do anything, one can never rule it out because we know by now they don’t play by rules.

Mb76 · 28/06/2023 07:09

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 27/06/2023 23:06

Attack on Kramatorsk cafe, clearly targeted, where aid workers, journalists and families were eating. Several deaths.

Almost a year to the day since the train station in Kramatorsk was bombed. Definitely a planned attack. Bastards.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 28/06/2023 07:16

DrBlackbird · 27/06/2023 23:46

Does a Prigozhin and his mercenaries based in a deserted army bade in Belarus pose an eventual threat to Kyiv?

  1. It will strengthen Lukashenko.

HIs army has been reluctant to the point of refusal to go into Ukraine, even though Putin was pressuring Lukashenko by all accounts. Now he has a battle hardened and ruthless small army in his army and the head of it owes him. The army can be used both within Belorus and outside it (Ukraine) and I would be astonished if Wagner doesn't put a great deal of pressure on the existing Belorussian army.

  1. Potentially yes, it does. Personally I'd guess that the threat is not that they will reach Kyiv but that they will force Ukraine to split its forces guarding the boarder. But it's Wagner led by Prigozhin; they could get up to anything.

On the hopeful side it seems that there was intel before the rebellion/mutiny/attempted coup/whateveryoucall it, not long before but a few days, but if some in Wagner are passing info on then there would be a few days' to prepare.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 28/06/2023 07:23

Yeah just found a reference to Wagner training the Belorussian army. Nothing good can come of that. They'll get better, but also infinitely more ruthless.

Maria Drutska
AT maria_drutska

"Wagner" will train or, at least, consult the Belarusian army, - Lukashenko "If their commanders come to us and help us… Experience. They are on the front line - assault squads. They will tell us what is important now. They will talk about weapons: which ones worked well, which ones did not. And tactics, and weapons, and how to attack, how to defend. This is invaluable. This is what we need to take from the Wagnerites," he declared.

https://twitter.com/maria_drutska

Mb76 · 28/06/2023 07:28

I hope Belarus army will resist to be hardened by Wagner.. at least up until now they have been very reluctant to fight against Ukrainians.

but yes, potentially this can be bad news for Ukraine

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 28/06/2023 07:36

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-june-27-2023

[today's is worth a close read]

Key Takeaways

  • Russian President Vladimir Putin is trying to present Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin as corrupt and a liar to destroy his reputation among Wagner personnel and within Russian society. [oh, the edifying spectacle of a corrupt, lying, ruthless murderer slinging mud at another corrupt, lying, ruthless murderer at the top of a 4th rate country]
  • Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko’s account of his mediation between Putin and Prigozhin on June 24-25 in tandem with Putin’s June 26 speech indicates that Putin promised Lukashenko and Prigozhin that Prigozhin and the Wagner Group would have “security guarantees” in Belarus.
  • Lukashenko likely seeks to use the Wagner Group in Belarus to buy maneuvering space to balance against the Kremlin campaign to absorb Belarus via the Union State and likely seeks to closely control any Wagner Group forces that move into Belarus.
  • Lukashenko also announced on June 27 that Belarus had received an unspecified number of Russian nuclear weapons on a previous date – a development that Lukashenko may also use to balance against the Kremlin’s campaign to absorb Belarus via the Union State.
  • The ongoing Putin-Lukashenko-Prigozhin powerplay is not yet over and will continue to have short-term and long-term consequences that may benefit Ukraine.
  • The Kremlin campaign to destroy Prigozhin’s reputation and possibly dissolve the Wagner Group’s Ukraine force decreases the probability of Putin announcing a new round of reserve mobilization in the near term.
  • Ukrainian forces conducted counteroffensive operations on at least four sectors of the front and reportedly made gains on June 27.
  • Russian President Vladimir Putin identified the Ukrainian main counteroffensive effort on June 27, possibly signaling his own defensive priority.
  • Russian and Ukrainian forces continued limited ground attacks northwest of Svatove and south of Kreminna.
  • Ukrainian officials are signaling that Ukrainian forces are capitalizing on the armed rebellion in Russia and intensifying counteroffensive operations in the Bakhmut area as of June 27.
  • Ukrainian forces continued counteroffensive operations in the Donetsk-Zaporizhia oblasts’ administrative border area.
  • Russian milbloggers expressed concern at Ukrainian attempts to advance south of Kherson City.
  • Russian officials expressed varied opinions on the future of private military companies (PMCs) in response to the armed rebellion.
  • The UN reported that Russia has detained hundreds of Ukrainian civilians since the start of the war in Ukraine.

Expanded:

Putin has likely decided that he cannot directly eliminate Prigozhin without making him a martyr at this time. Prigozhin still retains some support within Russian society and the Russian regular forces...The Kremlin will likely continue to attack Prigozhin’s character to break Prigozhin’s popular support, discourage Wagner personnel from following him to Belarus, and destroy his financial power.

The deliberate effort to separate Prigozhin from the Wagner Group is likely intended to set informational conditions so that the Kremlin can accuse Prigozhin of corruption or conspiring with Ukraine or the West and alienate Prigozhin from Wagner personnel whom the Kremlin seeks to retain to fight in Ukraine as part of the regular Russian military. [roflol I wondered how long it would be until Putin blamed the West]

The Kremlin’s response to the aftermath of Prigozhin’s armed rebellion points to more advantageous conditions for Ukraine compared with the pre-June 24 situation.

Summary of another section: The MoD is taking Wagner's heavy weoponry. Other heavy weoponry is being moved from Ukraine to Moscow to defend it. Net result, less heavy weoponry within Ukraine.

Lukashenko may use the deployment of Russian tactical nuclear weapons in Belarus in tandem with a new Wagner Group presence in Belarus to argue that Belarus has a new capacity to defend itself independent of Russia and that additional Russian basing in Belarus is therefore unnecessary. An indicator of this course of action will be whether Lukashenko allows more Russian military personnel to train at Belarusian training grounds. Ukrainian officials stated that there were approximately 1,000 Russian military personnel in Belarus as of early June 2023 – a sharp decrease from spring 2023 when Ukrainian officials reported that about 9,000-10,000 Russian troops were in Belarus as of March 30.

Lukashenko’s elaborate account suggests that Lukashenko successfully mediated a crisis within Putin‘s own inner circle that Putin could not....... The fact that Putin has not challenged Lukashenko’s presentation of events and has in fact publicly thanked Lukashenko is even more humiliating.

Institute for the Study of War

Russian President Vladimir Putin is trying to present Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin as corrupt and a liar to destroy his reputation among Wagner personnel and within Russian society. Putin implied on June 27 that “the owner of Concord compan...

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-june-27-2023

Igotjelly · 28/06/2023 07:43

Looking back to the plane that was tracked on FlightRadar a couple of days ago. Several places now reporting that it was sent to collect Russian Diplomats from Washington and return them to Moscow. So nothing particularly unusual. U.S. Allows Russia to Bring Plane to Retrieve Diplomats - The Moscow Times also reported in the Mail but I refuse to link to it Grin

U.S. Allows Russia to Bring Plane to Retrieve Diplomats - The Moscow Times

The United States said Tuesday it let Moscow send an airplane to Washington to pick up diplomats despite a ban on commercial flights and called for reciprocal treatment.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/06/27/us-allows-russia-to-bring-plane-to-retrieve-diplomats-a81670

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 28/06/2023 08:06

Kyiv Independent Telegram

⚡️Ombudsman: Evacuation plans prepared in event of Russian attack at Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. Ukraine has set up separate evacuation headquarters in the oblasts surrounding the plant and has made plans to evacuate any residents who live within a 30-50 kilometer radius of the plant. https://kyivindependent.com/ombudsman-ukraine/

⚡️Military reports advance up to 1,400 meters in different sectors. https://kyivindependent.com/military-reports-advances-up-to-1-400-in-different-sectors/

Czechia delivered 24 tanks, 76 infantry fighting vehicles (IFV), 645 anti-tank guided missiles, and other aid to Ukraine between January and May 2023, Radio Prague cited the country's Prime Minister Petr Fiala on June 27.

⚡️Pentagon confirms $500 million military aid package for Ukraine, including armored vehicles, anti-armor weapons, and munitions. https://kyivindependent.com/pentagon-confirms/

⚡️US Treasury sanctions) companies linked to Wagner Group's mining operations. https://kyivindependent.com/us-treasury-sanctions-4-wagner-linked-companies/

⚡️https://kyivindependent.com/death-toll-in-kramatorsk/ ⚡Death toll in Kramatorsk missile strike rises to 8 including 3 children.

⚡️NATO leaders urge response to Wagner's alleged redeployment to Belarus.
"The de facto relocation of Russian forces, the Wagner Group, to Belarus, together with its head Yevgeny Prigozhin, is underway. These are very negative signals for us," Polish President Andrzej Duda said. https://kyivindependent.com/nato-leaders-urge-response-to-wagners-redeployment-to-belarus/

⚡️ Lukashenko claims Prigozhin in Belarus. https://kyivindependent.com/cnn-satellite-belarus/

⚡️CNN: Satellite images show 2 planes linked to Prigozhin at airbase in Belarus.

⚡️Putin claims Wagner militants were fully funded by state https://kyivindependent.com/putin-claims-wagner-gr/

⚡️Russia's FSB says it closed criminal case over Wagner rebellion.https://kyivindependent.com/russias-fsb-says-it-closed-criminal-case-over-wagner-rebellion/ Preparations are underway for the transfer of Wagner Group's military equipment to the units of Russia's regular army, the Russian Defense Ministry said, as cited by Russian state-owned news agency RIA Novosti.

⚡️ Border Guard Service: No evidence yet of Wagner camps in Belarus.
There is no evidence yet that Wagner Group camps are being constructed on Belarusian territory, State Border Guard Service's spokesperson Andrii Demchenko told Ukrainska Pravda on June 27. https://kyivindependent.com/ukraines-border-service-refutes-claims-on-belarus-wagner-camps/ "At the same time, it cannot be ruled out".

⚡️NYT: Senior Russian general knew about Wagner rebellion. https://kyivindependent.com/nyt-russian-general/

⚡️Six explosions reported in Russian-occupied Melitopol. https://kyivindependent.com/six-explosions-reported-in-russian-occupied-melitopol/

⚡️Media: Belarus gave wanted Ukrainian oligarch diplomatic post to block extradition to US. https://kyivindependent.com/belarus-names-yanukovychs-ex-ally-as-diplomat-to-avoid-extradiction-to-us/ U.S. prosecutors charged Firtash with racketeering and bribery in 2014, and he was briefly arrested in Austria before posting bail.

A bipartisan group of U.S. lawmakers is calling on President Joe Biden to provide Ukraine with cluster munitions, also known as dual-purpose improved conventional munition (DPICM), Foreign Policy wrote on June 26.

⚡️Official: Russian occupation authorities in Mariupol evict residents from their homes https://kyivindependent.com/official-russian-occupation-authorities-in-mariupol-illegally-evict-residents-from-their-homes/ “Simply put, if your documents were burnt, and civilian or military occupiers want to move into your apartment, then you are guaranteed a life without a home,” Andriushchenko said on Telegram.

⚡️Russian forces kidnap children (https://kyivindependent.com/russian-forces-kidnap-children/) from Zaporizhzhia, transport them to Chuvash Republic.

⚡️Former Ukroboronprom official charged with state funds embezzlement. https://kyivindependent.com/former-ukroboronprom-official-charged-with-state-funds-embezzlement/

Russia's FSB says it closed criminal case over Wagner rebellion

Russia's Federal Security Service said it had closed the criminal case over Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin's armed rebellion on June 27, as cited by Russian state-owned news agency RIA Novosti.

https://kyivindependent.com/russias-fsb-says-it-closed-criminal-case-over-wagner-rebellion

borntobequiet · 28/06/2023 08:36

Wouldn’t it be great if Lukashenko and Prigozhin combined forces and turned on Putin? (Well maybe great isn’t the right word.). It would seem perfectly in character for both of them.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 28/06/2023 08:40

⚡️Lithuania to transfer2 NASAMS launchers to Ukraine. https://kyivindependent.com/lithuania-to-transfer-2-nasams-launchers-to-ukraine/

Far less hardware losses, but nearly 1000 personnel. I wonder why the pause in attacking Russian hardware.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 42
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