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Ukraine Invasion: Part 42

986 replies

MagicFox · 24/06/2023 13:32

Setting this up early given the speed of current events

**

  1. The agreed purpose of the thread is for the sharing of information and commentary on current events
  1. If you post a link please tell us where it leads/give a precis of the content
  1. Discussion and debate is welcome, but please keep it respectful
OP posts:
Thread gallery
145
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 07/07/2023 10:27

Kyiv Independent Telegram

⚡️Reuters: State Department, White house say Biden administration did not authorize unofficial US-Russia talks. https://kyivindependent.com/foundations-for-peace-talks-former-u-s-officials-engaged-in/
The Biden administration did not sanction secret talks that former top U.S. national security officials held with Russian officials, including Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, on potential ways to end the war in Ukraine, Reuters reported on July 6, citing the White House and State Department.

⚡️General Staff: Ukrainian forces make further gains https://kyivindependent.com/general-staff-ukrainian-forces-make-further-gains-south-of-bakhmut/ south of Bakhmut.

⚡️Russian forces shell Sumy border over 100 times in one day. https://kyivindependent.com/russian-forces-shell-sumy-border-over-100-times-in-one-day/

⚡️Zelensky, Erdogan to meet https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-erdogan-to-meet-in-istanbul/**in Istanbul.

⚡️ Bloomberg: Ukraine possibly fields https://kyivindependent.com/bloomberg-ukraine-fields-more-tanks-than-russia/ more tanks than Russia.

Zelensky to visit meet with President Pavel. [as of yesterday; the meeting has taken place] kyivindependent.com/zelensky-to-visit-czechia-meet-with-president-pavel/

⚡️Bulgaria signs declaration https://kyivindependent.com/bulgaria-signs-declaration-in-support-of-ukraines-move-toward-nato-membership/ in support of Ukraine's move toward NATO membership.

⚡️Finland announces https://kyivindependent.com/finland-announces-114-million-military-aid-package-for-ukraine/ million military aid package for Ukraine.
The package reportedly includes anti-aircraft weapons and ammunition, among other things.

Ukraine war latest: 10 killed in Russian missile attack on Lviv https://kyivindependent.com/update-death-toll-of-lviv-missile-strike-rises-to-9/

Sergey Kiriyenko, deputy chief of staff of Putin's administration, visited the Russian-occupied site of the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant on July 6, the plant's press service announced on Telegram. https://kyivindependent.com/kiriyenko/

Politico: Zelensky argues with Bulgarian president https://kyivindependent.com/politico-zelensky-argues-with-bulgarian-president-over-his-opposition-to-arming-ukraine/ his opposition to arming Ukraine. At the meeting, Radev claimed "there was no military solution" to Russia's war in Ukraine and that "more and more weapons will not solve it." Zelensky replied by asking Radev what he would do if faced with Moscow's invasion.

Raiffeisen Bank International is delaying its pullback from Russia as Austria wants to safeguard its long-standing ties with Moscow, Reuters reported on July 6, citing three undisclosed sources. https://kyivindependent.com/reuters-raiffeisen-delays-exit-from-russia-as-austria-protects-ties/

⚡️Russian shelling destroys train station in Kharkiv Oblast. https://kyivindependent.com/russian-shelling-destroys-train-station-in-kharkiv-oblast/

⚡️45 Ukrainian POWs, 2 deported children return home. https://kyivindependent.com/45-ukrainian-pows-2-deported-children-return-to-ukraine/

Slightly lower losses all round, but it's still over 500 dead.

There have been unconfirmed reports that Russia is losing 10 men to every 1 Ukrainian lost.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 42
Ukraine Invasion: Part 42
Ukraine Invasion: Part 42
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 07/07/2023 10:32

Ragnar Gudmundsson
[email protected]
@ragnarbjartur
·
9m

HIGHLIGHTS FOR JUL 7:
■ Combat engagements below 7-day average
■ Troop & equipment losses below 7-day average
■ Double-digit artillery, drone, APV & vehicle losses
■ Oryx update: 50losses added by@Rebel44CZ

https://twitter.com/ragnarbjartur

notimagain · 07/07/2023 12:53

MissConductUS · 06/07/2023 23:19

I would just add that Ukraine is choosing to use them on its own territory. They know the risks and the burden of clearing them afterward. They've obviously judged that the risk is less than that posed to their citizens by the risks of Russian occupation.

Yep, big picture stuff, and I'm in agreement with that.

The Russians have no qualms about using the things and neither they, the US or Ukraine are signatories to the Convention....

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 07/07/2023 17:42

UNITED24 Media Telegram

⚡️On July 11-12 in Vilnius, NATO leaders will approve a multi-year support package for Ukraine, which will bring it closer to the alliance, — the Secretary-General of the alliance.

The Czech Republic will hand over combat helicopters and ammunition to Ukraine, the country's prime minister said.

The Russians are going to put the power unit No. 4 of the ZNPP into a state of "hot shutdown": the threat of an emergency is growing significantly, — Energoatom
The pseudo-head of the station, Yuriy Chernychuk, has already issued a corresponding order. Because the Russians blew up the Kakhovka HPP dam, the Kakhovka Reservoir is dehydrated, and therefore, when more power units are started, there may not be enough water to cool the reactors.
Therefore, if two power units operate in the "hot stop" mode, there is a real threat of an emergency at the station.

☢️ Even the worst scenario of the development of events at the Zaporizhzhia NPP captured by the Russian military will not pose a radiological danger to the population, according to the American Nuclear Society

On the roof of the Zaporizhzhia NPP, the Russian occupiers installed machine gun nests, writes The New York Times

Volodymyr Zelenskyy arrived in Slovakia.
The president will discuss military aid to Ukraine, its integration into NATO and the EU, the upcoming summit of the alliance and the Ukrainian "peace formula".

Slovakia will hand over 16 Zuzana-2 to Ukraine and set up production of howitzers jointly with Ukraine, Slovak President Zuzana Čaputová said after talks with Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

Martin Harris will be the new ambassador of the United Kingdom to Ukraine. He will replace Melinda Simmons and will begin work in September 2023. The British government noted that Harris had already worked in Kyiv: from 2003-2008, he held the position of deputy ambassador and consul general.

Twitter has threatened to sue Meta, accusing it of intellectual property theft after the company launched its Threads microblogging service. Zuckerberg's company was also accused of hiring former Twitter employees who had or still have access to confidential information.
Elon Musk commented on this situation as follows: "Competition is good, but fraud is not."

TheABC · 07/07/2023 17:49

@Igotjelly, thank you for that Defence in Depth link. I enjoyed listening to it. Our of the two sides, Russia really is the one with the most to lose and it will be interesting to see how the Kremlin will deal politically with a bad defeat.

Igotjelly · 07/07/2023 19:44

Just realised that this weekend will mark 500 days of war. How depressing!

Greenshake · 07/07/2023 20:14

Igotjelly · 07/07/2023 19:44

Just realised that this weekend will mark 500 days of war. How depressing!

I don’t know what I thought would happen at the start of all this, but I never thought it would still be going at this point.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 07/07/2023 20:27

"USA officially announced a new security package for Ukraine" - the White House.

— 32 Bradley infantry fighting vehicles and 32 Stryker armored personnel carriers;
— additional ammunition for Patriot and HIMARS air defense systems;
— AIM-7 air defense missiles;
— anti-aircraft complexes Stinger, Javelin;
— 31 155-mm howitzers;
— 105-mm and 155-mm artillery shells, including DPICM (cluster) ;
— tube-launched missiles, Penguin unmanned aerial systems and explosive munitions;
— demining equipment, spare parts, small arms and 28 million cartridges for them;
— 27 tactical vehicles for lifting equipment;
— 10 tactical vehicles for towing and transporting equipment;

MissConductUS · 07/07/2023 20:47

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 07/07/2023 20:27

"USA officially announced a new security package for Ukraine" - the White House.

— 32 Bradley infantry fighting vehicles and 32 Stryker armored personnel carriers;
— additional ammunition for Patriot and HIMARS air defense systems;
— AIM-7 air defense missiles;
— anti-aircraft complexes Stinger, Javelin;
— 31 155-mm howitzers;
— 105-mm and 155-mm artillery shells, including DPICM (cluster) ;
— tube-launched missiles, Penguin unmanned aerial systems and explosive munitions;
— demining equipment, spare parts, small arms and 28 million cartridges for them;
— 27 tactical vehicles for lifting equipment;
— 10 tactical vehicles for towing and transporting equipment;

I was just coming on to post the link to the full list.

https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3451570/biden-administration-announces-additional-security-assistance-for-ukraine/

There are lots of nice bits and bobs. This one has more vehicles than I anticipated. It's great to see the additional 64 IFVs.

Biden Administration Announces Additional Security Assistance for Ukraine

The Defense Department announced additional security assistance to meet Ukraine's critical security and defense needs.

https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3451570/biden-administration-announces-additional-security-assistance-for-ukraine

TrustThePlan · 07/07/2023 21:49

I've been following this latest talk about cluster munitions with some concern. I know the US has a truly massive stockpile of the things, probably way more than HE for sending to Ukraine.

Things like this pop into mind: https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20181207-century-french-soil-still-contaminated-wwi-ammunition

Which, if anyone thinks we've made things much more reliable, is sadly not the case: https://www.docdroid.net/nsS09jd/m85-pdf

In many ways this is like another ecological disaster, in many respects up there with if Russia had blown the ZNPP.

Really don't like where this is headed now.

A century on, French soil still contaminated by WWI ammunition

World War I ended 100 years ago. But its effects linger on in north-eastern France, in the form of environmental pollution. Several years ago, researchers discovered that ammunition destruction operations,…

https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20181207-century-french-soil-still-contaminated-wwi-ammunition

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 07/07/2023 22:43

@TrustThePlan No one thinks they are nice weopons but on the other hand, it sounds like Ukraine needs them. And frankly Russia has been using them a great deal along with phosphorus (Ive seen the photos of the burns left in a backyard and short clips of it being used in the Kherson region) and something called Lewisite, an arsenic-heavy chemical weopon.

I don't anyone -wants- them to be used (except the Russians). But the Ukrainians think they are necessary.

Perhaps if the West had not given out weopons in such slow dribs and drabs it would not have been necessary.

@Igotjelly I dunno. That article is irritating, going on about how the Spring Offensive never materialized and the summer one is 'faltering'.

Time and time again the more highly trained and experienced generals have said that given just how long Russia has had to dig in, Ukraine is sensible to take it slow. Plus, they still have those several batallions in reserve.

Ukraine is heavily softening things up - the artillery losses are in the 10-30 region, usually above 20, for day after day now.

It's not a massive clean sweep of the occupied territories, no. But I think it's worth considering this is a slow, steady plan that's being carried out that saves Ukrainian lives.

As I think I said upthread, numbers are being kept rather quiet but I saw a couple of people who talk sense saying that the Ukrainian: Russian losses are around 1: 10 am. There are reports that the 1st lines of defense have been breached in one place, perhaps more; the 2nd and 3rd lines will be more heavily defended but that is why Ukraine is being given more mine-clearing stuff.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 07/07/2023 23:04

Apparently in an interview with CNN President Biden has said:

"The decision to transfer cluster munitions to Ukraine was made because both Kyiv and Washington were running out of conventional shells"

"The second is that the Ukrainians are running out of ammunition for 155-mm howitzers. This is an ammunition war. And they are running out of this ammunition, and we have little of it." - Biden

"And I accepted the recommendation of the Ministry of Defense not on a permanent basis, but temporarily, during the transition period, while we receive more 155-mm weapons, these shells, for the Ukrainians" - Biden

So it seems the shell shortage is dire. Which could be another reason for the slowness of the offensive.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 07/07/2023 23:08

Michael Kofman
@KofmanMichael

A few thoughts on DPICM. Providing cluster munitions to Ukraine, at this stage, could have a significant impact beyond what other capabilities might achieve. Despite the drawbacks, unlocking this stockpile has important implications for the course of Ukraine's offensive. 1/

Ukraine's offensive is limited by the artillery ammunition available. The US, and other countries, provided a significant amount for this operation. Much of this was borrowed from South Korea. Without this ammunition it is difficult to imagine this offensive taking place. 2/

Progress has been slow, difficult, and without sustained breakthroughs thus far. While UA retains the bulk of its combat power, artillery use rate is likely higher than anticipated, especially as the past weeks have seen a largely attritional approach. 3/

Consequently, Ukraine's hardest limit is proably not manpower, or equipment, but arty ammunition. This is foremost about the numbers. Providing DPICM gives access to a sizable stockpile of artillery ammo that can alleviate the time pressure on UA operations. 4/

With DPICM the US is also in a much better position to sustain Ukraine's war effort into next year, which requires significant amounts of artillery ammunition on a monthly basis. While other capabilities may be great to have, providing DPICM may prove more impactful. 5/

While UA retains options, the offensive may culminate whenever the ammunition runs low. Extending that timeline is critical. I wont get into the debate on effectiveness vs the risks, dud rates, etc. My view is these considerations are ultimately best left for Ukraine to weigh.

https://twitter.com/KofmanMichael

blueshoes · 07/07/2023 23:09

I don't anyone -wants- them to be used (except the Russians). But the Ukrainians think they are necessary.

@ReleaseTheDucksOfWar I think you mean "(least of all the Russians)" Wink when used against them. As in get a taste of their own medicine seeing Russia used cluster munitions as far back as the first day of the invasion in February 2022, as human rights organisations say.

@Igotjelly it does smack of useful idiot as he bears the hallmarks of being so quick to frame the progress of the war as going negatively for Ukraine when it is premature and also Ukraine is not divulging everything.

Also more recently on Sky News:

https://news.sky.com/story/us-agrees-to-send-controversial-cluster-munitions-to-ukraine-12916946

"Colin Kahl, under secretary of defense for policy, said "hundreds of thousands" were available but refused to state how many would initially be provided.

He said Russia had been using older cluster munitions with a dud rate of 30-40% since the start of the war.
Ukraine is said to have given written assurances not to use them in populated areas, to map where they are used, and committed to a post-war clean-up.

The US put off the decision "as long as we could" due to the risk to civilians, said Jake Sullivan, Mr Biden's national security adviser.

But he said there was "a massive risk of civilian harm" if Russia takes more territory because Ukraine doesn't have enough artillery.

Ukrainian presidential adviser Mykhailo Podolyak said cluster munitions could have an "extraordinary psycho-emotional impact" on demoralised Russian troops."

@TrustThePlan Ukraine has asked for cluster munitions. It is their land, their civilians and their decision. They have weighed up the risks.

MissConductUS · 07/07/2023 23:29

Not much to add here, aside from my opinion that the article from Sky News is rubbish and written by someone with zero military background or expertise.

In addition to opening up more supply, the CM artillery rounds are simply more effective in achieving the current tactical objectives than the unitary shells that the Ukrainians have been firing up until now. Those are better suited to hitting hard targets like buildings or armored vehicles. The blast radius on them is fairly small. Because of the way CMs spread out, they are more effective against soft targets like troops in trenches and on open ground.

There's nothing odd about wanting the best weapon for the job when you're fighting a war aimed at the genocide of your people.

TrustThePlan · 08/07/2023 01:26

MissConductUS · 07/07/2023 23:29

Not much to add here, aside from my opinion that the article from Sky News is rubbish and written by someone with zero military background or expertise.

In addition to opening up more supply, the CM artillery rounds are simply more effective in achieving the current tactical objectives than the unitary shells that the Ukrainians have been firing up until now. Those are better suited to hitting hard targets like buildings or armored vehicles. The blast radius on them is fairly small. Because of the way CMs spread out, they are more effective against soft targets like troops in trenches and on open ground.

There's nothing odd about wanting the best weapon for the job when you're fighting a war aimed at the genocide of your people.

Let's look at the facts.

We know Ukraine is in desperateIy need of munitions, and the fact that South Korea had to loan a lot of shells (I recall 500k) to fill in the gap is a major indicator of that. The US and Europe simply don't have the capacity to keep up with Ukraine's usage right now, and to have any chance, they have to match, but ideally surpass, Russia's output. Russia, as it happens, has mobilised a lot of new production capacity, replacing URAL repair yards with Rostec ones after sorting out the private debts of the companies when it comes to vehicle repairs (it was arguably a more arduous trek for Russian equipment to get fixed than for the AFU to send stuff to Germany, for instance).

The stories about M777 repairs needing the units to be sent back to the BAE Systems plants in the US is not a great indicator the West has retained capacity to prosecute modern high intensity operations against a peer threat.

Barrel production capacity in the West has been gutted by privatisation. The fact that the British military can no longer make precision gun barrels is a sore point for the people I know in the forces, along with our total land forces being 70k now. The US has the industrial capacity that the UK and EU lack, and even then, they are clearly short of HE delay shells. We’re sending buckshot you’d use against clay pigeons, when we should be sending meaty .50 cal. shells to take out the charging rhino coming at you.

Russia has been using cluster munitions for as long as this war has been going on, and I believe the AFU have too. That has not changed the course of the war, and it won't do anything against hardened positions. We know this because of Israel's deployment of DPICM in 2006 during the South Lebanon conflict, where the IDF had far better equipment and training and was still bogged down.

There are reports of the AFU reducing the amount of armour used in probing assaults, preferring to use light motorised units. This either means lack of equipment or reticence to use such because, as I would imagine is already obvious to many, the use of Western prestige equipment psychologically makes the Russians seem more likely to target it. I've seen countless Bradley and Leopard chassis burning from videos online, which doesn't help morale, and I won't be posting those links given their NSFW nature. The 47th, after that terrible minefield incident, hasn't deployed Challenger 2s as they received. Some say this is because the British MoD don't want them seen wrecked in public, some because, as stated above, they would be a prime target for any defensive battery on the Russian side.

Now, what can we do to change this? My primary focus would be to amass a sizeable force that can puncture through to the main defensive lines of Russia, something not seen yet. Indeed, from the maps I’ve seen, the AFU has so far gotten nowhere near the primary force components of the defensive barriers, which is troubling. This is down to a couple of things, both of which are not easy to address.

  1. NATO training has been done under the assumption that combined arms can be utilised as a NATO force would use it. The reason the US doesn’t have many SAM systems, for instance, is because the USAF is there to gain air superiority (or dominance as their 1990s doctrine switched to) to allow ground forces to move unhindered up to the enemy without threat of bombardment from the high ground. The dithering over F-16s and other aircraft has meant this offensive had to have minimal CAS aircraft committed, since a lot of Su-24 and 25s and similar ground attack aircraft have been lost to the Russian defences. Without air cover, your ground forces aren’t just open to artillery, of which Russia vastly outnumbers Ukraine. They’re also then open to the gunships like the Ka-52 using Vikhr and VKS fighter-bombers utilising FAB-500-M62 glide-bombs and other stand off munitions.
  1. Russia is fighting a positional war with Ukraine. Think WWI. NATO AirLand Battle doctrine of the ‘80s and onwards is more akin to manoeuvre warfare, as you saw in Blitzkrieg. Remember all the articles about the Maginot line and how this made static defences useless in a mechanised, air power led war? Well, that only holds if you can attain air superiority and you have the option to manoeuvre. If you can’t go round your enemy’s defence in depth, then you HAVE to go through it. And you cannot do this piecemeal. I cannot emphasise this enough, so I’ll say it again: You CANNOT force your enemy to rout in a fixed, well laid out defensive line by poking with small forces with high mobility. This may have been something that could have been achieved back in April 2022 or even late summer that year, but we are no longer in that state, unfortunately. The Russians have wised up, are far less eager to throw men into questionable moves (unless it’s Wagner’s penal units) and have a history of very good defensive discipline (see Barbarossa) when they get their act together. Nothing can be gained by having an understrength force go against this kind of setup. It’s like trying to blow out a bin on fire by using a Super Soaker and running around chasing the flame edge, when what you really need is a fireman’s hose directed at the base to punch through and dissipate the flame.

What I have heard the AFU is doing more of, is hitting rear echelon targets. If you have the munitions to reach them, you may as well do that to overall soften up your enemy’s force composition given the direct assaults aren’t going well. There are videos of munitions dumps going up in smoke and even a couple of Storm Shadows being tracked and allegedly shotdown by Pantsir AD (actually, even if the missile was taken out, this leads to the first documented instance of a modern stealth aircraft being tracked and engaged by an air defence system, which is an interesting topic in itself given the only equivalent was Serbia shooting down an F-117A in the ‘90s).

The take home point here if you wanted to skip all that above, is that sending cluster munitions is not a GOOD indicator of progress. Quite the opposite. It means the US has tapped out their munitions stocks and can’t get any allies to chip in with more, South Korea being obviously less eager to part with shells they stockpile against the North. Cluster munitions are also not magic. They will be of limited effectiveness for offensive operations, being more useful in a defensive and mining tactic compared to HE shells. They won’t do anything about barrel wear, which is also a growing problem given how much artillery is used (contrary to what I’ve seen written elsewhere, DPICM does not affect barrels less than normal HE 155 mm. They’re literally the same shell with a different filling). These munitions will make movement through any territory wherein they were used very dicey indeed, especially given the much, much higher dud rates found from the Israeli employment of M85 and similar ordnance.

TrustThePlan · 08/07/2023 02:37

Igotjelly · 07/07/2023 08:23

Recommend the latest Defence in Depth episode from Dom.

My insomnia got the better of me tonight, although it also meant forgetting to address this in my previous post. I'm not quite sure what this kind of messaging is meant for, because strength of will absolutely does not offset a lack of military industrial base.

If what was said here was real, then Nazi Germany wouldn't have had any issues dealing with the Soviets and Allies because Goebbels was an elite operator in keeping everyone on message. To the point that Hitler believed his own hype, and we all know how that played out.

The US and UK and everyone else did not defeat Nazism in the '40s because of superior propaganda. They did it through vastly superior industrial might, because no matter how much better 1-on1 the Luftwaffe planes or Wehrmacht tanks were than the Allied equivalents, they had fewer of them. And in a massed war, that is all that matters without literal superweapons like nuclear bombs.

You are not defeating Putler with memes and gung ho spirit. You defeat him with tonnes and tonnes and tonnes of ordnance, armour, aircraft and men to go with them.

notimagain · 08/07/2023 08:45

There are videos of munitions dumps going up in smoke and even a couple of Storm Shadows being tracked and allegedly shotdown by Pantsir AD (actually, even if the missile was taken out, this leads to the first documented instance of a modern stealth aircraft being tracked and engaged by an air defence system, which is an interesting topic in itself given the only equivalent was Serbia shooting down an F-117A in the ‘90s).

Of course "stealth" has never meant invisible but the media giving that impression allows the opposition to spin any kill of a "stealth" target as being something wonderful and ground breaking, whereas it probably may not be. There's a reason the more correct term than Stealth is Low Observable (LO) - as in difficult to detect but not impossible.

The F-177A shoot down you refer to is a case in point. The Serbs did one clever, bespoke bit of work to some radar (specifically got it working in the VHF so it could detect one specific LO target- the F-177A, only in certain circumstances and at short range) but there wasn't a general technological breakthrough that rendered stealth/LO irrelevant.

The main reasons the F-117 got clobbered was the Serbs had good old fashioned real time Humint, plus bad weather (which stopped EW support), plus a badly relaxed attitude by the mission planners to ingress/egress routes which allowed the Serbs to put their bespoke anti F-177A radar right under one of the frequently used ingress routes to a frequently bombed target at about the point in space where the aircraft was at it's most observable (bomb doors open, albeit briefly)....very much a niche scenario.

Fundamentally even with LO or genuine stealth, let down your guard, play stupid games and you can win stupid prizes, or get close enough to a SAM site, even if you are LO, and you may get engaged..so a Storm shadow being shot down isn't an indicator of much, if anything.

L1ttledrummergirl · 08/07/2023 09:00

@TrustThePlan I disagree with that analysis.
Ukraine have been exploring defences, destroying hardware whilst trying to protect their soldiers, something Russia isn't worried about doing.

I think they've determined that they can either throw men at the trenches, something akin to the Somme, or they can try to clear the trenches first. We know that hitting a trench with a barrage of artillery just wastes equipment, it does nothing and throwing men in straight after will be a slaughter, so my guess is Ukraine won't want to do this- I wouldn't.

A cluster bomb dropped directly into the trench would (sadly for the men in them) clear the trenches more efficiently. I can see why they would want them. Ukraine have been asking for the best tools for the job, I can see why this would work.

Amispringy · 08/07/2023 09:15

Zelensky's dawn visit to Snake Island is such a strong message of leadership

My take on cluster munitions - if it clears trenches and saves Ukrainians lives then I'm all for it

The russians have mined the hell out of the place anyway

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 08/07/2023 09:24

As @MissConductUS says, they have given written assurances to track where the cluster bombs are used and to clean up afterwards.

Unlike the Russians.

The people who scream about the US giving them are crazy. What the fuck do they think Russia has done? With the millions of mines they have used, just how many children will be blown up if Russia wins? Becuase I guarentee you a country where the soldiers put grenades inside children's soft toys isn't going to be a country that tracks its mines.

RedToothBrush · 08/07/2023 09:44

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 07/07/2023 23:04

Apparently in an interview with CNN President Biden has said:

"The decision to transfer cluster munitions to Ukraine was made because both Kyiv and Washington were running out of conventional shells"

"The second is that the Ukrainians are running out of ammunition for 155-mm howitzers. This is an ammunition war. And they are running out of this ammunition, and we have little of it." - Biden

"And I accepted the recommendation of the Ministry of Defense not on a permanent basis, but temporarily, during the transition period, while we receive more 155-mm weapons, these shells, for the Ukrainians" - Biden

So it seems the shell shortage is dire. Which could be another reason for the slowness of the offensive.

Another thought.

You don't want to waste those type of shells on mine clearance which was happening I believe. You want to use them for strategic targets.

Scattering bombs are more indiscriminate - and that doesn't matter in that situation. And ultimately they could harm Ukrainians. But they do the job.

StormShadow · 08/07/2023 10:14

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 08/07/2023 09:24

As @MissConductUS says, they have given written assurances to track where the cluster bombs are used and to clean up afterwards.

Unlike the Russians.

The people who scream about the US giving them are crazy. What the fuck do they think Russia has done? With the millions of mines they have used, just how many children will be blown up if Russia wins? Becuase I guarentee you a country where the soldiers put grenades inside children's soft toys isn't going to be a country that tracks its mines.

I wouldn't trust Russia to do an adequate job of mine tracking even if they sincerely wanted to.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 08/07/2023 10:25

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-july-7-2023

Key Takeaways:

  • Ukrainian forces made tactically significant gains in the Bakhmut area and continued counteroffensive operations in at least three other sectors of the front on July 7.
  • Russian forces have reportedly committed almost the entirety of the Russian Eastern Grouping of Forces to southern Ukraine.
  • The deployment of almost the entirety of the Russian Eastern Grouping of Forces and extensive SMD elements to the frontline in southern Ukraine suggests that Russian defenses in southern Ukraine may be brittle.
  • Russia temporarily disconnected at least partially from the global internet during a test of its “sovereign internet” system overnight on July 4-5. [if successful in the long term this may have economic effects for Russia]
  • Russian forces conducted a series of missile and drone strikes against rear areas in Ukraine on June 6 to 7.
  • Russian and Ukrainian forces continued ground attacks along the Kharkiv-Luhansk Oblast border. Ukrainian forces made tactically significant gains in the Bakhmut area between July 6-7.
  • Russian and Ukrainian forces conducted ground attacks in western Donetsk Oblast.
  • Russian sources claimed that Ukrainian forces launched a renewed wave of counterattacks in western Zaporizhia Oblast on July 7.
  • The Russian occupation of the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant (ZNPP) continues to restrict international monitors’ access to the facility.
  • The Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) reportedly drafted a law that would expand the list of gross disciplinary offenses within the Russian Armed Forces.
  • Russian authorities continue to portray themselves as responsible custodians of Ukrainian children in an effort to discredit Ukraine while continuing to forcibly deport Ukrainian children to Russia.
  • A Belarusian military official stated that Wagner Group forces have not yet decided to deploy to Belarus while giving a press tour of the speculated Wagner Group base in Asipovichy on July 7.
Ukraine Invasion: Part 42
Ukraine Invasion: Part 42
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