MISSING TITAN SUB - THREAD 5

[tortoishelll]

Thread 5 - a continuation.

My heart aches for those poor men and their families. 💔😔

It's been mentioned a lot.

But of course - game controllers seem to be used by the US Navy as well.

I do think there are lessons in the human psyche here. I listen to Cautionary Tales by Tim Harford - and he details lots of lessons from disasters, accidents and othe events where people should have learnt from them

Podcasts | Tim Harford

The episode about the vigilante and the air controller is a tale of how 2 aircraft crashed when they shouldn't have done - and all the precautions that should have been taken weren't there.

2002 Überlingen mid-air collision - Wikipedia

This - you and be highly intelligent - and good and kind - and yet capable of doing incredibly stupid things.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jun/23/titanic-sub-live-updates-us-navy-catastrophic-implosion-submarine-victims-titan-missing-submersible-latest-news

Thank you.

I'll have a listen.

I accidentally came across the Nutty Putty cave incident on You tube when I was looking for stuff on the Titan. A couple of people on these threads had mentioned it so I watched one of the videos. It was one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever heard - really distressing.

I don't think anyone would be thinking these men were idiots. The fact is that they did an idiotic thing - getting into that sub. We are human, no matter what our status is.* These men were truly good men, and so sad to hear they could not be rescued in time.* There have been comments on the various threads that they should have spent their money better, people thinking they are some billionaire playboy types, with no real knowledge of who they are at all. They're also not the first to do this. James Cameron has made 33 dives to wreckage, for example. I'm sure they knew there was a risk, but they were doing something that had been done before and the British guy is an explorer. This is what he does.

That Titan Sub looks like it has been made in someone's back garden. Pipes, wires exposed. What would happen if a pipe broke or something went wrong, there is no spares?
An HGV truck has several extra tires if one should burst.

Looking at the Titan Sub, it is a cylinder with a fancy tail and name. OMG, checks should have been made before this was allowed to descend.

My original post you quoted said quite clearly I felt sorry for the families. Again you are dramatising by saying I feel disdain.

And yet you agree with me that it is only devastating for loved ones. Again that was in my original post.

Seriously, how do you cope with day to day life?

Thanks @AcrossthePond55! This is very fascinating indeed!

I'm glad this thread has gotten back to being a bit more sensible, sensitive and serious after it's initial ricochet start

Nice to see that a family friend is defending the Dad and son against the Aunt's claims. Admittedly it's the Daily Mail so apologies for the source (they'll have copied it from some other news outlet - I noticed they copied an article word for word from Reuters re legal implications of Titan's implosion with no credit given to Reuters at all):

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227575/Friend-student-father-died-Titan-sub-hits-claim-son-wasnt-trip.html

💯agree with you.

Several months ago a local community member was lost during adverse conditions. Within an incredibly short space of time between his wife being advised his remains had been found, and it appearing in the major headlines, was minimal.

added to that, the community f.book page was being targeted by an individual wishing to share the headline. Friends of the family asked that our community page operate a black out period on any speculation or news until such time as all of the family were advised and had time to digest the news.
the individual contacted one of the admins and blasted her for removing the posts. At no time did this individual consider the feelings of family members who were on the page. It was all about her and her ability to be the first with the headline…..

sone people are absolutely self centred crappers!

My understanding is they have done a dozen or so previous commercial dives to the Titanic over the last couple of years, but some have included problems that would give most people pause before wanting to get on board on the next trip.

The other massive problem seems that the vessel was not pressure tested, despite undergoing 50 or so deep dives and surely experiencing wear, and also that the viewing window was not deemed suitable for 4,000 metres depth.

It's now being reported that the carbon fibre used in the hull construction was bought "on sale" from Boeing after it had passed its shelf life and Boeing would not use it.

www.insider.com/oceangate-ceo-said-titan-made-old-material-bought-boeing-report-2023-6?amp

Thanks to all who have shared their knowledge and linked to interesting threads on the subject. I've been down a lot of rabbit holes about physics, deep sea animals and all sorts. The PP who mentioned USS Thresher got me interested in that and here is a rather relevant quote from the wiki section on the inquiry into its loss:

"During the 1963 inquiry, Admiral Hyman Rickover stated:
I believe the loss of the Thresher should not be viewed solely as the result of failure of a specific braze, weld, system or component, but rather should be considered a consequence of the philosophy of design, construction and inspection that has been permitted in our naval shipbuilding programs. I think it is important that we re-evaluate our present practices where, in the desire to make advancements, we may have forsaken the fundamentals of good engineering"

This advice was heeded and the whole approach to safety in the design and use of US Navy submarines was completely overhauled after that and it seems that ethos extended to most of the civilian submersible community and was reflected in, for example, the Challenger Deep craft.

I sort of understand why the British passengers got on : "informed consent" being a strange beast when there is a big knowledge gap between the person handing over the pen and the person using it to sign the form. I'm a bit puzzled about the "Mr Titanic" Frenchman though. Mind you (xeno- stereotype coming up) the French do seem to be quite into free climbing and free diving, so perhaps this stripped-down, simplified vessel without the plan b) c) d) and e) options for every eventuality appealed somehow.

O M G

This is hearsay. If proven, this would really blows apart any narrative that Stockton Rush was highly safety conscious.

Unbelievable if the bloke used redundant carbon fibre?- just shockingly negligent.
What was this bloke , someone with a death wish? Sure seems like it.
To involve others is surely criminally negligent.

This is hearsay. If proven, this would really blows apart any narrative that Stockton Rush was highly safety conscious.

It's from a well respected travel journalist who was due to travel on the sub:

Weissmann wrote that he was due to board the Titan to view the Titanic in May but the trip was stopped by weather. In fact, just a couple of weeks stood between his would-be voyage and the trip that ended in tragedy this week when the vessel imploded, killing all five on board, he wrote.
In general, he said, he was impressed by "what appeared to be a risk-averse operation."
But one thing concerned him, he wrote.
Rush told Weissmann that "he had gotten the carbon fiber used to make the Titan at a big discount from Boeing because it was past its shelf life for use in airplanes," Weissmann wrote.
In his recollection, he asked Rush whether that was a problem, but he said he was told that the shelf-life dates "were set far before they had to be".

---

It's not been corroborated by Boeing however.

I suspect this will form part of any forward investigation.

Bear in mind that Stockton claimed (on the website) the sub was developed in collaboration with Boeing who have denied any such claims.

Using former Boeing "cast offs" was potentially the basis for this claim perhaps?

Even old tech could identify exact subs not just their class. I have no doubt that they 100% knew what the noise was but didn’t want the world to know their classified capabilities. Just like MH370 where the military didn’t provide radar data at first so as not to reveal their capabilities. It’s possible of course that a government somewhere does have more tracking info on MH370 but it’s so top secret they could never reveal it.

I don't think they did know.

They heard something, but this was a one off sub, also they probably didn't know the things was even in the sea.

I'm the person that said Cameron isn't an expert, I think I need to quantify that. Yes he was involved in the design of his own sub but I think of him more like an airline pilot.

Pilots know how planes work but generally they are not usually involved in the design or maintenance. When a plane crashes they don't send pilots to investigate they send a team, one of whom may be a pilot.

This 'they heard the implosion at the same time/shortly after the sub lost comms' stuff..

And subsequent leaps to conclude that the US authorities 'knew' the sub had imploded days before anyone else...

Not what happened, at all.

Sounds were recorded, sounds in our oceans are being monitored in some places near constantly.

Those recordings do not have someone listening/watching them the whole time, and it is data that needs to be interpreted by someone or several someones who know what they're doing, and importantly, what they are looking for.

The ocean is not a silent place, and the Titanic is not a silent wreck, so noises from there are not unusual.

They were also not alerted that anything was amiss, that there was anything to look for until 8+ hours later.

They may have had a fair clue, far sooner than the public were told of it, that an implosion had occurred, but ' a fair clue' is not sufficient data to stop looking for a sub with five people on it.

It is also very normal that the public are not informed of every scrap of information about a situation - as this tragic incident demonstrates, most of the public haven't a fucking clue and will twist and misinterpret that information.

So no, no I don't think they knew for certain the sub had imploded straight away, I don't think that was ever possible.

I do think by the time the first remote sub with the capability to get right down to the bottom was deployed, they had a fairly good idea what they were looking for though.

I'm afraid as others have said your five threads behind but to cut to the chase GPS doesn't work underwater so it would only have been a factor if the submersible had been lost on the surface....if that's a direct quote from the Metro that's another example of inadequate tech knowledge by some in the media.

We now know game controllers are used by the US Navy for some functions on some of their boats, not sure of the brand.

Not linking to the article as it’s the daily mail and saw the headline on Twitter, but WTF…. Lefties!

BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride

Admittedly I despise reducing people's opinions on certain things to left and right wing as its always more nuanced, he's referring to an ex Labour who whilst they were still missing tweeted that if they can afford this they should pay more tax which is disgusting- the 'tolerant' part of the left is often questionable though even though that should be the basis. There were lots of disgusting posts about because of their wealth they deserved it or oh well which is grim.

But I do hate BJ and think he's abhorrent so dont wish to read his article.

@cakeorwine

"The episode about the vigilante and the air controller is a tale of how 2 aircraft crashed when they shouldn't have done - and all the precautions that should have been taken weren't there."

Re - Uberlingen - to some extent that was an example of bringing in novel technology without ensuring absolutely everybody in the world being on the same page with regard to it's operation and most most especially the required procedures....

Might be some cross over to this current accident, don't know.

One thing I guess worth mentioning is that as in aviation people will have to wait quite a while for an official report..I hope we don't start hearing claims of a cover up if there's nothing official released by the end of the month/year.

I don’t understand how these people agreed to get into a what seems like a flimsy sub with many previous issues in the first place. Is it because no actual reputable company offers commercial trips like this? Many successful expeditions to Titanic were done in past, the French guy alone did like 37 of them. So why would he go along with this one?
That and the fact that the sub was allowed to operate in the first place without any safety testing, taking tourists for a fee. But I suppose the fact that it’s international waters might have something to do with it?

BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride

Oh fuck off Boris. This is really starting to piss me off.
I was an extremophiles microbiologist for the first ~20 years of my scientific career, still do some work on extremophiles but not exclusively so. I have worked in extreme environments since I first went sampling a geothermal field in NZ in 1994 (and promptly stepped into a 80C, pH 2 hot spring, just a minor blister as a result though), I dived in Alvin, spent weeks and weeks out on ships in various oceans, flew by helicopter into the caldera of an active volcano (since closed to everybody including scientists), hiked to the top of Mt St Helens because there is a wee hot stream in the crater, camped out in Yellowstone on sampling missions, cross country skied to get to some remote YNP springs. I know people who go and spend their summer months in Antarctica or the Arctic, go out to sea in the roughest of weather. I know scientific divers and people who spend weeks and month in the field for their scientific work. And then we go back to the lab, often on precarious short term contracts, and painstakingly analyse our samples and data, write publications, discuss with our peers and write a few more grant applications to do it all again, all while observing every safety aspect that can be humanly observed.
The Times has a few articles going in a similar direction as well and it's starting to annoy me. We know how to safely build subs (and yes there will always be risks nevertheless), yes, it's expensive and going through regulation processes is time consuming. Going down in a questionable sub to look at a wreck which has been fully scanned recently is not pushing out frontiers of human knowledge, it's just not.
Sorry for the rant.