MISSING TITAN SUB - THREAD 5

[tortoishelll]

Thread 5 - a continuation.

My heart aches for those poor men and their families. 💔😔

They released the information about strange banging noises when they had no idea what that was, though, didn't they?

Less likely to have investigators crawling all over it than disappearing with a canoe, I suppose.

No - someone random released it on twitter (IIRC) and they then had to comment. They had been given the audio and had been investigating it. A RN commentator on GB news said that it wasn't as conclusive as it was made to sound. The implication was that there had been several hours of rhythmic banging noises at half hour intervals, whereas it had only happened twice - two sets, half an hour apart,

that could be almost anything.

Most of the very rich don't pay much in the way of taxes. They keep their money in offshore accounts to reduce the amount they pay to pennies.

They still don't deserve to die horribly, though, but please don't pretend that they are keeping our social infrastructure from collapsing.

It’s very possible that after the pressure wave killed them, the extreme compression of the gases in the sub heated the gases and the remains enough to cause a massive rise in temperature. The Coast Guard aren’t expecting to find remains because the remains were effectively cremated immediately after death

I regret to say it, but that's horribly fascinating information.

“I question your use of the word "correctly" here. This was a publicly funded rescue mission where there weas no hope of rescue and the public (and press) were kept in the dark.”

The US Navy identified a possible event at the right time and place to be the Titan. While the depth made it extremely likely this was going to be a catastrophic event, they couldn’t be certain. They had to make sure.

Almost no hope isn’t the same as no hope. And you don’t abandon submariners to die trapped and running out of air when it’s peacetime - you just don’t. It’s a truly awful death.

This is a good thread on the sonar stuff

twitter.com/BrynnTannehill/status/1672241884876374021?s=20

@waterlego Someone said to me today that they’d heard one of the men on board was about to be done for dodgy money dealings so might have wanted to fake his own death, and that no one saw the sub go into the water 🧐

I was thinking that one conspiracy theory that might emerge is something about how the CEO is actually in hiding on the Polar Prince, and has faked his own death so not to be held to account.

Disclaimer: I do not actually believe this

So, we have to rely on random leaks to find out what's really going on? Is that the message we want to send out to the world? It's such a stupid own goal by the authorities. We live in a society where a huge chunk of the population believe the authorities are manipulating the news to serve whatever crazy conspiracy theory, and here is an example of the authorities actually, genuinely hiding the truth about events relating to a major global news story.

When the next conspiracy nut comes on talking about pizzagate and I say "the authorities wouldn't lie about that" and they say "yeah, but what about the Titan sub where they tried to cover up the implosion evidence" and I go "Yeah, but they had a good reason that time". At least if the authorities had come clean before Cameron went on the TV it would have been something.

This was a publicly funded rescue mission where there weas no hope of rescue and the public (and press) were kept in the dark.

I don't think it was a 'rescue' mission in the sense of 'save the people on board' because the offer of the Magellan (which is capable of pulling up an intact stranded sub from that depth was refused). This fits with James Cameron's interview that they knew (or at least very strongly suspected) from the sound of an implosion picked up by military sonar that this was never going to be a rescue mission.

It is right the public were kept in the dark but I expect the immediate families were told that an implosion had been heard and this was not good news. There's little point in telling the public "we the experts are 99.9% these people are dead so we aren't going to be bother importing true rescue vehicles" because there would be a public outcry. Plus the passengers have wider circles than immediate family who would be striken by probably dead but uncertain news.

It's fairer and better public information management to wait until there is confirmed information of debris as they were obviously expecting to find.

If he wanted to build his sub and go up and down himself then that’s his choice but to bring passengers, I think it’s incredible that there isn’t any regulations at all.
I think they were lucky to get out alive on previous trips by the sounds of it.

Anyway, for the “But they already knew” crowd, here’s an ex-Navy sonar tech explaining why they couldn’t know for sure.

https://twitter.com/brynntannehill/status/1672241884876374021?s=61&t=XlpDvB5mGv20HhBLCHOT4w

https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/facts/animal-pressure.html

NOAA has good info on this.

Both Woods Hole and Scripp's Institutes of Oceanography also have excellent information on deep sea creatures (and the oceans in general) and how they exist in such extreme cold and pressure. It's pretty amazing how they've adapted over the aeons.

I can get lost down any number of 'rabbitfish holes' on either of those websites.
For instance, did you know that the deepest whale dive on record is almost 10,000 feet? That's TWO MILES down and just 2500 feet short of where the Titanic rests on the sea floor. It was a Cuvier's beaked whale recorded in 2014. How does a species that can also live at the surface survive such a deep dive? Rabbitfish hole, here we come.

I find it hard to believe that people think the 'authorities' knew precisely what had gone on and withheld information and misled the public and the media. Conspiracy theorists always seem to place much more credence on coordinated intelligence in the 'authorities' than is likely to be the case.

Somewhere the navy or others picked up a noise on Sunday. And there may have been some other noises observed at 30 minutes apart (twice I think is the latest) a few days later. But the sound on Sunday might not have been reported centrally and might not have been instantly recognisable as significant and linked to the Titan - especially since that wasn't reported till 8hours later. Even if the coastguard or other coordinators of the recovery were made aware of this noise they wouldn't have had certainty about where or what it was - since the later sounds heard were clearly misconstrued (and could easily have come from a support or search vessel). In the end the coastguard will have collated whatever information came to them but kept an open mind until they had more evidence and information. Mistakes can be made in investigations when they make their minds up too quickly on what happened. And it's perfectly appropriate not to report every possibility to the media until the picture is clearer. We have no way of knowing (and we don't have a right to know as instant gratification) but the family might have been informed of the possibility that it had imploded on Sunday but that the recovery mission were keeping an open mind till they knew more. If they did know early on and had said they thought it had imploded on Sunday rescue coordinators would have been accused of being swift to judgement - 'how can they possibly know, they just don't want to bother with the expense of an extensive search'.

In the end amongst the speculation it was clearly the most likely scenario and as soon as the submersible search vehicles were on site the likelihood was confirmed.

Get over with all this indignant conspiracy stuff. They didn't know and know they know for sure.

No - the only thing we can rely on most random leaks for is disinformation and over-dramatisation. The random leak didn't tell us what was "really going on"- all they did was stir up a lot of drama and false hope.

The relevant rescue organisations know what they are doing. The examine and assess the information they are given/ collect. They know which is relevant and which isn't, and frankly, having people sit things up, and having news agencies breathing down their necks with pigs*t thick questions that they are them forced to waste time on, certainly doesn't help anyone.

Conspiracy theorists will find something to feed their paranoia whatever happens. And there is a difference between "covering up" information, and not publicising irrelevancies.

@Anactor

That thread is very interesting but is about why they couldn't know for sure based purely on sonubuoy sound data and something else corroborative is required.

As she says there may have been detection of the bubbles going to the surface, and MAYBE the wreckage hitting the sea floor (the Pisces III hit the bottom going 40 mph). 14/n

it's perfectly appropriate not to report every possibility to the media until the picture is clearer. We have no way of knowing (and we don't have a right to know as instant gratification)*

Exactly!

Bold fail for the quotation above from @Bouledeneige 's post

Sorry

Very interesting thread - thank you for the link.

I've learned tons of stuff this week (asked some silly questions, too, but people have been very kind 😁). Thank you to everyone who has had the knowledge and the patience to share it.

Thank you @SheilaFentiman

I didn't see you had already posted this when I thanked someone else for it too. (Reading thread from back to front)

It's very interesting stuff.

There might. But I think you’re really not appreciating that ‘something else corroborative’ doesn’t usually mean other sounds. Try listening to some of the tapes and you’ll appreciate how very noisy it is underwater.

’Corroboration’ means physical evidence or visual evidence (and btw, they rescued the crew from Pisces III).

Oops, didn’t see that when I posted it as well. It’s a great thread, isn’t it?

No worries @Anactor yes it is

Part of me has just started thinking about depth charges in WW2. The idea of sinking submarines by using depth charges near them. I guess they too would implode and death would be instantaneous.

When you see them in war films, you just see the water exploding when the sub has sunk. There's no real comment on what has actually happened to the sub below.

I do wish some people would spend the 30 seconds googling things rather than posting “well I heard this… no idea if it’s true or not” or turning the 19 year old’s aunt’s interview into “the poor boy was bullied into going” without any thought.

I watched an interview with James Cameron on CNN and had no idea how much of an expert he is, so again, people asking “well what does he know?” should take a minute to find out. He talked about the fact that these submersibles should be made from materials like steel, ONE material, because you can test and model their strength, and know that they will hold their strength for hundreds or even thousands of dives under the pressure. Carbon fibre composite subs, where it’s basically a mixture of 2 or more materials, you can’t properly test the integrity, because you don’t know how well the materials have bonded, if it’s consistently bonded, and how it maintains that bond under pressure. Plus the materials could degrade differently after each use. The small group of sub experts all meet up annually and collectively a letter was written to to OceanGate’s CEO to express their concerns.

There’s also issues with the fact that OceanGate’s CEO said in interviews and on their website that they had ‘worked with’ Boeing, NASA and the University of Washington, implying they had been involved in either design, testing or construction of the Titan, when it fact it seems none of that was true. The university have said they allowed their pool for testing of a steel vessel to 500m, but not the Titan vessel. Stockton was clearly overstating their involvement to give credibility and reassurance to his project, and allowing paying guests to go with him funded the project.

For those asking about implosions, you just have to look at the remains of the Titanic to see that the pressure down on the seabed doesn’t just obliterate everything. Marine life is also down there, but the issue is on air. Materials will be under immense pressure, but can withstand it. Fish without air pockets have less to compress, and water doesn’t compress water. So pieces of metal can fall off, but the air inside the chamber, and air inside the people will have been compressed in a millisecond.

I’ve seen the arguments for and against visiting/exploring the Titanic and I don’t see it as any different to visiting the 911 memorial, Pearl Harbour, Hiroshima etc. Tragedies occurred at all of these places, and people visit to pay their respects, to learn the history, and all sorts of other reasons. At Pearl Harbour you stand on the memorial bridge and look down into the water where the ship was sunk, it’s still just under the surface, still leaking oil droplets. Why is that ok, but the remains of the Titanic not? Inaccessibility aside, of course, but some have talked about it being ghoulish. As someone much further upthread said, if the Titanic was just beneath the surface and a little boat could take you out to see it, it would be a ticketed tourist attraction, for sure. There are about 1,100 crew entombed within the USS Arizona at Pearl Harbour, which thousands of people visit every day, so I think very comparable to the Titanic.