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Ukraine Invasion: Part 40

994 replies

MagicFox · 13/05/2023 15:17

40 threads, still here πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦

OP posts:
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221
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 21/05/2023 20:47

In fairness there is some evidence that there are Russian military units which are well armed, prepared and rested. Ill see if I can find one of the two reliable links.

I don't trust that poster an inch but there were some valid points in among the attitude-with-an-agenda. (funny, we had a vatnik just a few pages ago too).

Imo some evolution has taken place, but the running of the war by Russian generals who seem more concerned with keeping Putin happy and Prigozhin at bay means that any offensive is kinda screwed. Basically, they're just trying to stay defensive in most places now. Shortage of kit and hardware is not going to improve unless they can get China on side.

https://mickryan.substack.com/p/the-russians-keep-evolving

The Russians Keep Evolving: Building a Foundation to Counter Russian Adaptation

Contrary to the β€˜Russian are stupid’ stereotypes that have developed throughout the war in Ukraine, they have demonstrated an ability in some areas to learn and adapt. This isn’t a statement of admiration; far from it! It is however necessary, through military prudence, to understand where the Russian are adapting and to assume that they may continue to do so in the coming months. In understanding Russian adaptation, we can ensure Ukrainian forces understand tactical and operational risks, and that they are best prepared for the months ahead.

Several areas of Russian adaptations during this war bear closer examination. Three key areas of learning stand out: strategic adaptation; operational adaptation; and tactical adaptation. Within each of these areas, there are sub-topics which deserve deeper exploration. I intend to cover these three levels of Russian adaptation in a series of posts.

Tactical Adaptation

Tactical excellence is core to the military effectiveness of military organisations in a theatre of war. It is the foundation skill, and set of experiences, for military leaders in any service and in any nation. You can’t win wars if you can’t win battles.

At the most basic level of military operations, armies, navies, air forces, and their supporting elements must be able to fight and win battles within their domains. The tactical level of war is therefore focused on the planning and employment of military forces in battles, engagements, and other activities to achieve military objectives.

In my book <a class="break-all" href="https://www.amazon.com.au/War-Transformed-Twenty-First-Century-Competition-Conflict/dp/168247741X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1KL3UVMNB7M8J&keywords=war+transformed+mick+ryan&qid=1681704156&sprefix=war+transformed%2Caps%2C249&sr=8-1<a class="break-all" href="https://www.amazon.com.au/War-Transformed-Twenty-First-Century-Competition-Conflict/dp/168247741X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1KL3UVMNB7M8J&keywords=war+transformed+mick+ryan&qid=1681704156&sprefix=war+transformed%2Caps%2C249&sr=8-1"" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.amazon.com.au/War-Transformed-Twenty-First-Century-Competition-Conflict/dp/168247741X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1KL3UVMNB7M8J&keywords=war+transformed+mick+ryan&qid=1681704156&sprefix=war+transformed%2Caps%2C249&sr=8-1" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">War Transformed, I conducted an extensive study of tactical effectiveness in the 21st century. It is also a topic that is explored in even more detail by Williamson Murray and Allan Millett in their superb three volume series called Military Effectiveness.

Tactical adaptation is those actions that underpin learning and improvement on the battlefield, as well as the dissemination of those lessons to other battlefield elements as well as the training institutions that prepare reinforcements and new units. There are many tactical adaptations which have occurred over the period since the beginning of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. In this article I will explore close combat, tactics, the use of mercenaries and an evolved approach to defensive operations.

One area of adaptation has been how the Russians have conducted close combat. Early in the war, the Russians sought to conduct sweeping manoeuvres that coordinated airborne and airdrop operations with ground offensive operations. Unfortunately for the Russians, air-land integration as well as ground combined arms tactics were poorly conducted. Shortfalls in infantry also played a part. Combined, this permitted the Ukrainians to attack Russian logistics and rear areas, destroy armoured vehicles while also killing many of the dismounted infantry soldiers of the Russian invading force.

The shortfalls in infantry and the armour-heavy β€˜thunder runs’ of Russian tanks towards Kyiv early in the war demonstrated either a lack of tactical competence or an impatience on the part of commanders to take the time to orchestrate the various elements of the combined arms team on the ground. It ultimately led to the Russian retreat from Kyiv and Kharkiv.

The disastrous crossing of the Severskii River by Russian forces in May 2022 was another exemplar of poor Russian tactical integration in their combat operations. Over the course of a full day on 11 May 2022, the Russian attempt to cross the river was repulsed by Ukrainian forces. They lost over a quarter of personnel committed to the crossing and nearly 80 percent of their armoured vehicles. It was decisive defeat, and indicative of an army that was still coming to grips with modern surveillance and targeting, and the complex integration of ground and air units when crossing obstacles.

However, after this, the Russians appeared to learn. Their conduct of the withdrawal from Kherson in October and November 2022 shows that they had adapted. They were able to undertake a large-scale river crossing operation and extract a large portion of the Russian forces that were deployed in the south of Ukraine. As one review of the operation describes:
The Russians succeeded in withdrawing two army-sized groupings from the Dnipro right bank: the Crimea-based 22nd Army Corps in the south; and a mixed northern grouping comprising formations from 35th Combined Arms Army and 49 CAA. 42,370 troops got away …253 tanks and almost 400 armoured personnel carriers of various types were also evacuated alongside several thousand wheeled vehicles. A Russian Army got away, and a Russian President escaped a humiliating defeat on the battlefield.Their poor tactical performance also drove the Russians to adapt their design for battle in the Donbas. Instead of more maneuverist tactics, they adopted a very attritional model. The Russians turned to massed artillery guided by UAVs to β€˜lead the way’ in their offensive thrusts. It resulted in the Russians advancing more slowly, and more caution, in order to not expose their logistics to attack.

Two other more recent tactical adaptations bear mentioning. The first that emerged was the large-scale deployment of Wagner Group mercenaries in 2022, particularly in the Bakhmut area of eastern Ukraine. Their adaptation was essentially a return to human wave attacks that have featured in conflicts such as the Iran-Iraq war.

This was not just the simple application of human wave tactics, however. It is a more sophisticated adaptation to tactics where the initial human waves are just the first echelon of several, each successive echelon featuring more experienced and capable troops. The Wagner Group, which had actively recruited convicts from the Russian penal system, used convicts as first wave troops, and essentially as bullet catchers for Ukrainian defending forces. Each successive wave would claw out small gains and eventually better trained and more experienced Wagner Troops would exploit any gains that these human wave attacks achieved.

Another recent tactical adaptation by Russian forces has included the formation of Shock Troops and the use of infiltration tactics to bypass Ukrainian strongpoints. Perhaps the best exploration of this topic has been provided in several posts by the @Tatarigami_UA twitter feed. I recommend following if you don’t already. There is also a good review of the evolved Russian tactics here.

These tactics, developed in the First World War to overcome the operational challenge of kilometres-deep defensive zones, demand tactical discipline and good leadership. They are also meant to enable the penetration of exploitation forces that can rapidly move into an enemy’s rear areas and destroy enemy reserves, logistics, artillery and headquarters. Despite the tactical adaptations we have seen from the Russians, we are yet to see them achieve an operational breakthrough and exploitation during the 2023 offensives.

The Russians have also evolved their conduct of air support to ground forces. In order to avoid the deadly Ukrainian air and missile defence network, the Russians have adapted their aerial tactics to employ longer range weapons. In March, it was revealed that the Russians have been using in combat for the first time their 1.5 ton UPAB-1500B glide bombs. Not only do these increase the survivability of the launch aircraft, but they are also very difficult to intercept.

Concurrently, Russian forces have been quite busy adapting their defensive tactics and developing successive defensive zones in the east and the south. Back in November 2022, I examined the utility of tactical and operational obstacle belts and zones. Since then, the Russians have further developed these eastern and southern defensive belts. The twitter feed maintained by Brady Africk (@BradyAfr) is an excellent resource in following Russian construction of these obstacle belts and zones. These are likely to pose a significant challenge to Ukrainian offensives in the short term.

There are several other tactical adaptations which I will cover in a subsequent post. These include Russian logistic systems, vehicle protection systems, and the use of drones and loitering munitions.

Countering Russian Learning

Thus far, the Russians have demonstrated the ability to learn and to adapt at the tactical level. This adaptation has been uneven, not evident across the breadth of Russian military operations, and many of the ideas are hardly new ones. But, it is undeniable that some learning and evolution has taken place. It is a military capability that will be central to Russia’s ongoing ability to conduct operations in Ukraine, and one that should be studied for weaknesses that might be exploited by the Ukrainian forces as well as Western intelligence agencies.

Notwithstanding the Russian ability to learn and adapt in this war, it is also clear that the Ukrainians have also been quick studies in modern war. Indeed, since the beginning of the Russian invasion, they have demonstrated the ability to learn on the battlefield and adapt. They have also shown a knack for the rapid assimilation of new equipment such as HIMARS and western armoured vehicles, and then applying these systems with great tactical competence.

Part of this Ukrainian capacity for individual and institutional learning must be a focus on developing a better understanding of Russian learning systems and outcomes. In doing so, Russian learning can be impeded or stopped, and their tactical adaptation made less effective and less systemic.
I look forward to sharing more on this topic in the near future in the hope of assisting the Ukrainian armed forces to develop a capacity for counter-adaptation against Russian forces.

The Russians Keep Evolving

Building a Foundation to Counter Russian Adaptation

https://mickryan.substack.com/p/the-russians-keep-evolving

blueshoes · 21/05/2023 20:54

Thanks Ducks for the link to the article on Russian evolving tactics. A timely reminder not to underestimate the enemy.

L1ttledrummergirl · 21/05/2023 21:38

Igotjelly · 21/05/2023 18:54

As others have said Crimea and the 4 annexed territories are β€œUkraine proper” and I absolutely do not envisage Russia keeping them, considering they don’t even occupy them in full now.

@Liebig, I disagree. Russia will come under increasing international pressure to respect Ukraines borders. More countries are turning away from them and those that are left supporting Russia will be ready to pounce when they sense a weakness.

Russia has over-reached itself.

As for Bakhmut, didn't they announce they'd taken it months ago? They lied then, and there us little evidence to say that's changed.

MissConductUS · 21/05/2023 21:41

@notimagain, here's a good discussion of the tactical issues the Ukrainians will face using the F-16s, by a formal naval aviator.

https://twitter.com/BrynnTannehill/status/1660261077026762753

One surprise for me - I didn't know they could get targeting cues from the Patriot radars. I also hadn't considered that they could load the JASSM, the US rough equivalent to Storm Shadow. JASSM only went into production a year or two ago, so it's probably a bit more advanced.

https://twitter.com/BrynnTannehill/status/1660261077026762753

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 21/05/2023 21:41

It rather looks as if there isn't much Bakhmut left to take. All they need to do now to make it a really worthwhile conquest is sow it with salt as well as landmines.

I hate them for their behaviour: wanton destruction is abominable.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 21/05/2023 21:43

(Except I am also very sorry for them: it does seem as if, too much of the time, their choice is obey whatever vile orders they are given, or be raped and killed themselves.)

Chatillon · 21/05/2023 22:08

@Liebig

Nobody underestimates Russia. Only Russia underestimates. That is why we are here 40 threads later.

And look at this shitload of stuff going on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_humanitarian_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War

As to a resilient economy, resilient against what? The past? Well the past is a great case study on how to fuck up a country. More money was siphoned off by oligarchs to fund luxury yachts that was spent to maintain a rusting Northern Fleet. How fucked-up is that. Russia is undoubtedly the country with the most abundant natural resources, but what a waste.

Over the period Putin has been in power he has allowed these resources to be plundered for his longevity. Nothing for the Russian people.

Meanwhile, creeping up The Netherlands' GDP is over half that of Russia's. The market capitalisation of each of Apple Inc and Microsoft Corp is greater than Russia's annual GDP.

Everything you post above shows no signs of objectivity. You clearly support an outcome where Russia wins and Ukraine fails. But if you read between the lines above Russia has already lost.

Don't go away. Stay around and let's see how this pans out over the longer term.

List of military aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War

minsmum · 21/05/2023 22:19

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1660381936966090755 unconfirmed report that another Russian plane shot down by Ukraine

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1660381936966090755

MissConductUS · 21/05/2023 22:40

minsmum · 21/05/2023 22:19

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1660381936966090755 unconfirmed report that another Russian plane shot down by Ukraine

It went down over the Black Sea. It's actually on a rescue mission for the Moskva. πŸ˜€

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 21/05/2023 22:41

Meanwhile, creeping up The Netherlands' GDP is over half that of Russia's.

it is?

The Netherlands, a very small country with no natural resources other than saltwater and a canny nose for trade?

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 21/05/2023 22:46

minsmum · 21/05/2023 22:19

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1660381936966090755 unconfirmed report that another Russian plane shot down by Ukraine

Seems the Ukr AF has confirmed it =)

Tim White
AT TWMCLtd
Β·
11m

Replying to
@TWMCLtd
#Ukraine's forces confirm videos do show another of #Russia's jets has been shot down.

https://twitter.com/TWMCLtd

Amispringy · 22/05/2023 00:10

borntobequiet · 21/05/2023 14:49

The picture I saw of the Russian flag being held up by Wagner mercenaries in a devastated, ruined Bakhmut really doesn’t convey the image they think it does.

No it doesn't
Barbarians

notimagain · 22/05/2023 07:10

*In fairness there is some evidence that there are Russian military units which are well armed, prepared and rested. Ill see if I can find one of the two reliable links.

I don't trust that poster an inch but there were some valid points in among the attitude-with-an-agenda.*

Seconded.

The POV that the Russians have evolved/adapted tactics has been noted in several place recently..

notimagain · 22/05/2023 07:25

MissConductUS · 21/05/2023 21:41

@notimagain, here's a good discussion of the tactical issues the Ukrainians will face using the F-16s, by a formal naval aviator.

https://twitter.com/BrynnTannehill/status/1660261077026762753

One surprise for me - I didn't know they could get targeting cues from the Patriot radars. I also hadn't considered that they could load the JASSM, the US rough equivalent to Storm Shadow. JASSM only went into production a year or two ago, so it's probably a bit more advanced.

Yep it's all very clever these days.....Once upon a time cuing/guidance for the entire flight of the missile was all down to the fighter and for radar missiles that put various restrictions on what the fighter could do pre and post launch. That's the era of tech and therefore one of the problems the Ukr AF have been having.

These days using encrypted datalink many radar missiles are networked to the whole Air Defence system and to a greater or lesser degree (depends on the system and upgrades) can get at least some of the the data they need from external sources such as Patriot and AWACS, both pre launch and in flight.

Rumour I'm hearing now is the F-16s provided will be basically at the Mid Life Upgrade (MLU) level, which means they can carry most of the very modern ordnance. They won't have the latest radars but will be capable of data linking radar missiles, certainly with Patriot but not AWACS (not that I think that is going to be an option at all).

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 22/05/2023 07:33

One of the big questions now is, will Ukraine wait for the F-16s to be delivered? We probably had a clear timescale before now (early June) but will they wait?

The US ones will be delivered autumn. The NL / Dutch ones may be earlier.

On another note it seems the Russians have changed tactics by combining several different types of missiles and UAVs at a city to get through Air Defense and unfortunately it's working.

" During the night attack, the occupiers fired at the fire department in Dnipro, the State Emergency Service reports 3 buildings were destroyed, more than 20 pieces of equipment were destroyed. One rescuer was injured." (AT TreasChest)

https://twitter.com/TreasChest

Howpo · 22/05/2023 08:50

So long as Putin is there and/or his supporters of this war, this conflict will go on for many more years, look how long Russia has been prepared to prosecute previous wars? & with their natural resources, inc troops, foreign trade and a highly developed tech sector, they can keep manufacturing weapons good enough to slowly destroy all of the east of Ukraine, i see the spring offensive has slipped, which brings into question has Ukraine got the means to launch one? Bakhmut has tied up huge amounts of UA resources.

China and India are providing him with huge amounts of foreign currency and doubtless components, if not actually weapons, which NK almost certainly is, along with Iran.

I also find it incredible the West is still finding more sanctions to impose, i mean, wft were they still trading Diamonds with Russia???? beggars belief.

Also, will F-16's actually reach Ukraine? does the west want to risk this tech falling into Russian and hence Chinese hands?

I think the long term future for Ukraine is at the very least, uncertain, i find all the talk of rebuilding, EU and NATO membership incredibly premature.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 22/05/2023 09:56

@Howpo

i see the spring offensive has slipped, which brings into question has Ukraine got the means to launch one? Bakhmut has tied up huge amounts of UA resources.

Ukraine does have a lot of stuff now yes, and it's not been put into action yet. They have been waiting for it all to arrive. The intense frustration is that all this should have been put into motion last autumn, not now, because a lot of the stuff has had to be overhauled which takes time.

Bakhmut tied up a lot of Ukrainian manpower etc and that has cost them dear, but it cost Russia dearer. That's the risk they chose to take ... there are no certain and guarenteed courses in war.

Agreed about diamonds etc! there are things that are still traded, but many things have been stopped. The biggest problems by far are that Russia is getting a lot of the sanctions stuff via third parties, plus China / Belorus / possibly Brazil & Hungary etc. What will happen with China is a very sharp question.

Also, will F-16's actually reach Ukraine? does the west want to risk this tech falling into Russian and hence Chinese hands?

Yes, the deliveries are going to happen and yes there is a risk some tech might fall into Russian hand. But, in some of the hardware already delivered, the most sensitive tech has been taken out while still leaving them very useable. @MissConductUS noted that the US keeps its very best tech for itself, none of the top stuff is sold/given to anyone else at all.

The timing of the deliveries is in question. As far as I can see, the Dutch / Danish F - 16s will arrive relatively quickly but what's been said by the US is that their F-16s won't arrive until the autumn. Simply training pilots for them will take 4 months. I dont know how long it takes for maintenance staff to be trained.

This leads to the question - will Ukraine wait for the fighters or will they go ahead with the counteroffensive? The F-16 will help a LOT but there again you have tens of thousands (really!) fresh Ukrainian troops being held in readiness for the offensive. There has to be a point where they need to get into action or they will lose their edge (I imagine).

All in all there is a real possibility of a frozen conflict, yes. NATO and the US have both commented on this. Possibly this is why Blinken finally managed to persuade Biden to allow the F-16s to be transferred.

At this moment top Ukrainian officials have said we are in the 'shaping' phase. When you look at the numbers of artillery etc lost each day at this point, they're 'shaping' with considerable determination. The Bakhmut counter-attacks are not the full counteroffensive.

On balance, and it's only a guess, I think that we will see bigger actions soon. These shaping actions wouldn't be going on if nothing was going to happen. But a lot of Ukrainian heads must be thinking very hard through the various options and balancing acts now F-16s are going to be supplied. (Possibly we might even see two counteroffensives? One now, one later in the autumn when the current active troops have had time to rest, recuperate, re-form and retrain).

I think the long term future for Ukraine is at the very least, uncertain, i find all the talk of rebuilding, EU and NATO membership incredibly premature.

While the war is ongoing they almost certainly won't become part of NATO. Hungary and Turkiye are huge problems in terms of them becoming part of the EU soon. But if / when some sort of peace comes, then I think both will happen for unoccupied Ukraine.

Chatillon · 22/05/2023 10:21

@howpo I think you are @Liebig as your positioning is identical.

Nobody expects borders to be pushed back to 2014 positions. At least I do not. However, a consequence of this war is that Russia is shown to be a failing state. To send men in tens of thousands deliberately to catch bullets obtained from two of the most despised countries on the planet speaks volumes for this.

You clearly admire Putin, but he admires the west so much he covets what the west has but which Russia does not. While Russia is playing catch-up and adapting from trench warfare seen in the 1980's the US is always several steps ahead. Have you any idea how much intel is being gathered from the battlefield and analysed back in the military labs of the US? The greatest adaptor is America. The greatest lateral thinker is America. That will remain so long after Russia has become a vassal state of China.

Howpo · 22/05/2023 10:51

Chatillon · 22/05/2023 10:21

@howpo I think you are @Liebig as your positioning is identical.

Nobody expects borders to be pushed back to 2014 positions. At least I do not. However, a consequence of this war is that Russia is shown to be a failing state. To send men in tens of thousands deliberately to catch bullets obtained from two of the most despised countries on the planet speaks volumes for this.

You clearly admire Putin, but he admires the west so much he covets what the west has but which Russia does not. While Russia is playing catch-up and adapting from trench warfare seen in the 1980's the US is always several steps ahead. Have you any idea how much intel is being gathered from the battlefield and analysed back in the military labs of the US? The greatest adaptor is America. The greatest lateral thinker is America. That will remain so long after Russia has become a vassal state of China.

No, i can categorically say thats not true, i ve clashed with @Liebig plenty of times, esp on Brexit and Healthcare... even in your world, 2 people out of 70m, can surely have similar views?

Admire Putin? you are joking? i ve been a long term critic of Putin long before he invaded anyone but the West did admire him (in fact we all did by our silence) and allowed him to influence elections without sanction & even allowed him to carry out executions, whilst taking his money for political funding and encouraging trade, anything to turn a buck hey!

imho Putin should and i hope, will be hung for his crimes, what he has allowed and ordered in Ukraine is beyond savagery & on par with what the Nazi's did in WW2.

But you do raise an interesting point, albeit unintended, dissenting voices on this thread that suggest Ukraine may not succeed, however much we want them too, are shut down with "Putin admirer etc"

Ukraine faces huge challenges, they are against an enemy who 2 very significant powers back (India and China) & a lot of the world still will not condemn, even our own Govt, whilst supporting Ukraine, support India/Modi, indeed our own PM's wife's family are still involved in Russia, all apparently ok as India has long historic ties with Russia, its beyond a joke, India is funding Russia's war machine and we sit back, inc on here, and say nothing, you don't either.

I'm not sure how far the USA is ahead of Russia or how many men Putin sends to their deaths really matters, Russia has plenty more, has natural resources and financial backing to prosecute this war indefinitely and its people either support the war or cannot practically oppose, one only has to look at the deaths Stalin caused to see that Russia has no means to stop despotic leaders, no matter what they do.

Ukraine's best hope is Putin dies and another more pragmatic leader takes over.

MissConductUS · 22/05/2023 11:02

Also, will F-16's actually reach Ukraine? does the west want to risk this tech falling into Russian and hence Chinese hands?

Yes, the deliveries are going to happen and yes there is a risk some tech might fall into Russian hand. But, in some of the hardware already delivered, the most sensitive tech has been taken out while still leaving them very useable.@MissConductUSnoted that the US keeps its very best tech for itself, none of the top stuff is sold/given to anyone else at all.

*notim *will likely jump in on this as well, but unless a Ukranian pilot defects with an F-16 and avoids getting shot down, the chances that they will capture one intact are very, very low. They might recover wreckage from a crashed F-16, but that would be far less useful. Also, the F-16 is a fourth generation fighter. The technology is far less sensitive than the tech in the F35, which is fifth generation.

You're right about the top stuff being for US use only. The Dutch and Belgian air forces have the export version of the F-16. That's been the hold up with the Abrahms tanks. The export models are built to order and there were none in the locker to give to Ukraine.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 22/05/2023 11:22

I don't think @Howpo is Liebog. They were fair questions and fair points.

But you do raise an interesting point, albeit unintended, dissenting voices on this thread that suggest Ukraine may not succeed, however much we want them too, are shut down with "Putin admirer etc"

This is a difficult point.

It's up to a point true @Howpo.

But it needs to be set in context a bit. From the very beginning this thread has been invaded by pro-Russian trolls and sometimes bots. This has been clear because there have been phases where a certain point has been pushed over and over again, by posters who strangely-coincidentally have no or near to no posting history before. Characteristic phrases and attitudes have also been pushed.

It is a known fact acknowledged by the government https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-exposes-sick-russian-troll-factory-plaguing-social-media-with-kremlin-propaganda that there are troll factories who target the UK among many other countries.

So yes, many of us have become twitchy. I guess as well we want Ukraine to win so much that we get a bit unwilling to face that it might not happen and Ukraine might not be able to sweep itself clean of of the Russian invasion.

It's a good thing to have (genuinely meant) questioning voices.

One of the Kremlin's triumphs within Russia and here has been acting in a way that makes us suspicious, with reason, of everyone who questions - which screws up perfectly legitimate people.

UK exposes sick Russian troll factory plaguing social media with Kremlin propaganda

UK-funded expert research has exposed how the Kremlin is using a troll factory to spread lies on social media and in comment sections of popular websites.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-exposes-sick-russian-troll-factory-plaguing-social-media-with-kremlin-propaganda

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 22/05/2023 11:52

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 22/05/2023 11:22

I don't think @Howpo is Liebog. They were fair questions and fair points.

But you do raise an interesting point, albeit unintended, dissenting voices on this thread that suggest Ukraine may not succeed, however much we want them too, are shut down with "Putin admirer etc"

This is a difficult point.

It's up to a point true @Howpo.

But it needs to be set in context a bit. From the very beginning this thread has been invaded by pro-Russian trolls and sometimes bots. This has been clear because there have been phases where a certain point has been pushed over and over again, by posters who strangely-coincidentally have no or near to no posting history before. Characteristic phrases and attitudes have also been pushed.

It is a known fact acknowledged by the government https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-exposes-sick-russian-troll-factory-plaguing-social-media-with-kremlin-propaganda that there are troll factories who target the UK among many other countries.

So yes, many of us have become twitchy. I guess as well we want Ukraine to win so much that we get a bit unwilling to face that it might not happen and Ukraine might not be able to sweep itself clean of of the Russian invasion.

It's a good thing to have (genuinely meant) questioning voices.

One of the Kremlin's triumphs within Russia and here has been acting in a way that makes us suspicious, with reason, of everyone who questions - which screws up perfectly legitimate people.

Bit like me other day. Busy watching Scam Interceptors on the BBC when some foreign sounding bloke rings the landline claiming to be calling of 'the commissioner's office'. I was so twitchy and suspicious that he must think I'm an absolute loon.

Turns out he was calling DH from the European Commission but had rung his home number by mistake. Poor bloke doesn't know how close he came to being told to fuck off.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 22/05/2023 12:11

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-may-21-2023

Key Takeaways

  • Wagner Group mercenaries likely secured the western administrative borders of Bakhmut City while Ukrainian forces are continuing to prioritize counterattacks on Bakhmut’s outskirts.
  • ISW previously forecasted that Wagner offensive operations would likely culminate after months of attritional urban combat, and it is unlikely that Wagner will continue fighting beyond Bakhmut at its current depleted state. [occasionally the ISW can sound just a bit smug or self-congratulatory!]
  • Russian President Vladimir Putin congratulated the Wagner Group and the Russian military on May 21 for capturing Bakhmut.
  • Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin predictably claimed the victory over Bakhmut City entirely for himself and his forces.
  • Russian reactions to the claimed capture of Bakhmut illustrate an increasingly growing divide between the Kremlin’s domestic presentation of the war and the ultranationalist milblogger community’s coverage of Russian operations in Ukraine.
  • US President Joe Biden stated on May 21 that the US will train Ukrainian pilots on fourth-generation aircraft, including F-16s, to augment Ukraine’s defense capabilities in the long term.
  • Former Russian officer Igor Girkin’s β€œClub of Angry Patriots” social movement opened a St. Petersburg chapter with an inaugural event on May 21.
  • Russian forces continued limited offensive operations northeast of Kupyansk and south of Kreminna.
  • Russian forces continued offensive operations on the Donetsk City-Avdiivka frontline but have not made any verifiable territorial gains.
  • Ukrainian forces reportedly conducted a deep strike against a Russian headquarters at an airfield in Berdyansk, Zaporizhia Oblast, with a Storm Shadow missile.
  • Chechen Republic Head Ramzan Kadyrov claimed that seven regiments and four battalions from Chechnya are operating in Ukraine as of May 20.
  • Russian occupation authorities are reportedly intensifying filtration measures in occupied Ukraine to find Ukrainian partisans.

Institute for the Study of War

Wagner Group mercenaries likely secured the western administrative borders of Bakhmut City while Ukrainian forces are continuing to prioritize counterattacks on Bakhmut’s outskirts. Ukrainian military officials reported that Ukrainian forces control an...

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-may-21-2023

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 22/05/2023 12:13

I wonder if this means Ukraine is more likely to delay the counteroffensive, if this new attack group has been formed. It could be deadly to ground troops and hardware.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 40