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Two dogs shot in London by police

867 replies

flowagurl · 08/05/2023 08:40

I’m usually very empathetic and recently even posted on an animal testing post but I just can’t find any compassion in my heart for out of control and dangerous animals at the moment, it’s just getting ridiculous. I obviously feel for the owner who I hope gets some kind of mental support/ counselling.

It’s so confusing as I’m usually so compassionate, I guess having a small child and the number of dog attacks does something to your brain? I hate walking past Bullies with my baby in the pram. Even normal dogs I’m starting to get very hesitant about. For context I usually cry if I step on a silver worm in the bathroom so this is a very strange reaction for me.

Interested to hear what other dog owning/ non dog owning people think. Also the government are going to have to step in at some point right?

OP posts:
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Corgiowner · 08/05/2023 22:06

You obviously know nothing about farm animals rightly or wrongly we cant just open up the barn doors and set them free the natural life which your proposing in the vast majority of cases in particular for dairy cows would lead to a painful and unpleasant death.
So who looks after these animals obeying instincts and having autonomy? Will they be allowed to roam where ever they want? Who pays the vet bills when they are sick, prevents them from getting run over, provides water and shelter, an adequate supply of food? Who prevents them from attacking humans dairy bulls for example are notoriously aggressive, and look at the Chillingham Wild Cattle, or stop these autonomous animals living by instincts from damaging property, wandering onto rail way lines or motorways?

stayathomer · 08/05/2023 22:33

I’m always torn on these threads, I see people talking about dogs not being trained properly etc, and I just think- what does a dog being trained look like? Our cocker puppy has been to three sets of training classes (5/6 lessons for each one), and he can do tricks, he walks to heel, we can divert attention and have him watch us if something is going on etc, but I think if anything huge happened, we wouldn’t have any control, like 90%of dog owners I suspect. People talk the talk and then their dogs are all over him and they say things like ‘oh my dog is just teaching him his place like he would in the wild’. BS-he’s pinning him down! The issue is size- if our dog went nuts one day we could get him off us/the kids with force if we had had had to (I feel guilty even saying that as he is the happiest little guy!), but a bigger dog gets all over you … I don’t think you could stop them.

BitOutOfPractice · 08/05/2023 22:58

I do think views on pet ownership will change. In the same way that views in animals in zoos / circuses / labs have changed. I don’t think it’ll happen overnight but I do think it’ll happen.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

WiddlinDiddlin · 09/05/2023 03:56

stayathomer · 08/05/2023 22:33

I’m always torn on these threads, I see people talking about dogs not being trained properly etc, and I just think- what does a dog being trained look like? Our cocker puppy has been to three sets of training classes (5/6 lessons for each one), and he can do tricks, he walks to heel, we can divert attention and have him watch us if something is going on etc, but I think if anything huge happened, we wouldn’t have any control, like 90%of dog owners I suspect. People talk the talk and then their dogs are all over him and they say things like ‘oh my dog is just teaching him his place like he would in the wild’. BS-he’s pinning him down! The issue is size- if our dog went nuts one day we could get him off us/the kids with force if we had had had to (I feel guilty even saying that as he is the happiest little guy!), but a bigger dog gets all over you … I don’t think you could stop them.

Trained is really lazy short-hand (when I use it), for 'trained, socialised, habituated, mental and physical needs understood and met, housed appropriately, handled responsibily' and thats a 'for life' thing not something you do simply by attending a 6 week course of puppy classes (though if its a good class, they are a good start!)

A major issue is the way 'these people' (who fit the criteria i set out in a much earlier post) live with and handle their dogs.

  • Actual training using aversives - thats prong collars, choke collars, shock collars, hitting dogs, yelling at them, pushing them around, causing them to behave or comply due to threats of pain, violence, fear.. This suppresses behaviour but does not address the route cause, causes all sorts of 'fall out', punishments associated with the wrong things, increased frustration, fear, aggression.
  • Poor handling generally - walking dogs on tight leads into situations the dog finds frustrating or frightening and constantly jerking the lead, ramping up that frustration or fear, increasing arousal (the case of Beast who killed Jack Lis, this can actually be seen in the cctv footage of the dog. He is repeatedly wound up and taken close to young people he lunges at, he is then yanked at and hit repeatedly.)
  • No consideration for stress levels - again such owners tend to lead very chaotic, high stress, frantic lives, and there is no thought to how stressful the dogs find it to have strangers in and out of the house, be left long periods randomly, be shunted from one home or one person to the next, constantly wound up on walks, hit, yelled at, in the company of other scary dogs, in the company of people high or drunk.
  • Crap husbandry - poor diet, lack of veterinary care, meaning dogs are poorly nourished, suffer digestive issues, are in pain.

These things are pretty much the recipe for a fearful, unpredictable, frustrated and aggressive dog - chuck in poor breeding with a genetic predisposition towards fear, frustration and aggression (and I have reason to believe the dog who killed Jack Lis fit that criteria too) and that was a death just waiting to happen.

So do the opposite of that - understand your dogs behaviour, meet his needs!

You're not wrong to call their commentary BS - dogs do not pin other dogs in the wild to teach them their place!

Dogs do not care about another dogs status at all, they only care about what resources they can access and who is safe to be around. Dogs that pin other dogs are typically insecure bullies, in the wild they would be shunned by others, they would struggle to survive, they would be at a higher risk of injury, infection and death as a result of this behaviour. Not natural at all, it is maladaptive and a result of poor genetics/poor training/socialisation/management.

Being aware of your surroundings and avoiding situations your dog will not like/will not handle/will stress your dog out is thoughtful and responsible dog ownership.

whyhere · 09/05/2023 07:44

megletthesecond · 08/05/2023 17:44

Staffies were never known as a "nanny breed" it's an urban myth.

Not so.

whyhere · 09/05/2023 07:46

Niffler29 · 08/05/2023 19:52

The owner is 100% to blame here due to his aggressive behaviour and lack of cooperation with the police, however, as someone who has worked with dogs my whole life and worked in the veterinary industry for more years than I can count, those dogs did not seem aggressive, especially not the second one. All news reports state no one received medical treatment after the initial “attack” on the woman - if either of those dogs had attacked/mauled/bitten someone they would have most definitely required medical treatment (they may have been out of control but it doesn’t sound like they actually hurt anyone, not saying that is okay either though!) It seems like massive overkill to send armed police for a drunk man and a couple of barking dogs, never mind shooting the dogs and tasering the man in broad daylight but I’m assuming there must be information they haven’t released.

Something most definitely needs to be done about dog ownership in this country, not just for bully breeds (which I actually really dislike) but for all breeds. Just because you’re not seeing the labradors etc that have seriously hurt/mauled people in the news, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen - I can assure you, it does. Breeding across all breeds is getting worse and dog owners are getting more and more irresponsible. Dogs are part of the family but everyone has to remember that they are NOT people, they’re predatory animals with 42 teeth in their mouths and with limited means of communication with human beings. There needs to be some serious regulations around dog ownership - classes to sit before getting a dog with a test to pass, mandatory training for multiple years (NOT a 6 week puppy course), annual temperament and training testing for dogs which will decide if they can be off lead, if they have to be muzzled in public, if they can be bred from or in some situations, if they should be humanely euthanised. The amount of people and other animals being killed or hurt by out of control dogs has reached breaking point and something certainly has to be done - like not allowing the man in the video to own dogs in the first place when he is clearly not mentally stable enough to.

In saying that, I think it’s too far gone now and the government/police do not have the funds or the desire to introduce something like the above. They don’t care enough about the human population never mind dogs. Realistically, there will just be more breeds added to the banned list and bully breed owners/breeders have no one but themselves to blame when that happens.

If any good can come out of the videos circulating, I hope it’s that people realise police can and will shoot out of control dogs which should encourage people to keep their beloved pets under control for their own safety, as well as everyone else’s. It does make me sad that the dogs have lost their lives in a pretty brutal way when the owner will walk away with a slap on the wrist - there should be proper jail time for people like that and a lifetime ban on owing dogs.

Other than loving bull breeds, I totally agree with you.

Rosscameasdoody · 09/05/2023 10:02

seratoninmoonbeams · 08/05/2023 09:41

I just can't get past the silver worm or silver fish or whatever in the bathroom. Why would there be anything like that in your bathroom?

Silverfish is a common insect, that’s all. Not a fish, not a worm. Nothing sinister, or an indication of dirt or anything else. They’re nocturnal and they like dark spaces and damp environments, so bathrooms, under kitchen sinks are common places to find them. They’re harmless, but if you have them in the kitchen they like to nest in unopened packets of starchy dried foods like pasta and rice. Easily killed with a solution of borax wiped over surfaces.

Iwasafool · 09/05/2023 10:16

Chesneyhawkes1 · 08/05/2023 20:44

@Lacoeur it's not clear whether that actually happened I don't think.

The police statement said no one was taken to hospital. And someone who was "savaged" definitely would be.

Let's be honest if those two dogs had you pinned against a wall they would terrify you, even if they never touched her she will have been through a horrible experience and dog owners have no right to do that to people.

Deathraystare · 09/05/2023 10:36

@seratoninmoonbeams ·

Well obvs the poster in question has a damp bathroom!

We had some silverfish in our kitchen growing up. We always had to keep the cat away!!

Corgiowner · 09/05/2023 10:57

Iwasafool · 09/05/2023 10:16

Let's be honest if those two dogs had you pinned against a wall they would terrify you, even if they never touched her she will have been through a horrible experience and dog owners have no right to do that to people.

I have a friend with a very large out of control dog he is completely harmless very bouncy and friendly. He recently jumped up trying to lick my face and pinned me against a wall, I’ve spent my life round large livestock including bulls stallions etc I wasnt scared but I didn’t like it because I just couldn’t get him off me. If I was nervous of dogs or tiny or easily intimidated by animals I think I would have been really scared and upset.

GSD20 · 09/05/2023 11:20

The dangerous dogs act states:

A dog shall be regarded as dangerously out of control on any occasion on which there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will injure any person or assistance dog, whether or not it actually does so.

So, it doesn’t matter whether or not the person was injured. The dogs would have been classed as out of control regardless, and rightly so IMO. If you can’t stop your dog bothering other people or animals you have no right to own it.

Comefromaway · 09/05/2023 11:34

In fact the dogs run towards the policeman whilst the owner is running away.

SerafinasGoose · 09/05/2023 11:34

MegaManic · 08/05/2023 14:57

I think one of us is definitely unhinged. No doubt you are the usual, my dog is just friendly type, all rights and no responsibilities. Every dog has the potential to be dangerous.
Of course I don't know her dogs but I know it is the height of stupidity to have a toddler sleeping with dogs that could potentially bite their face off.
Have you heard of kids being killed by dogs because their stupid parent left them with their lovely family pet or do you just ignore that?

Another variation on the theme: 'I know my dog and he's as gentle as lamb'.

And when they attack: 'She's never done that before!'

Until they do.

These dog-types are bred with specific traits, and when they do home in they are capable of inflicting a great deal of damage. Likely as not they're as soft as they come - as are some of the SBTs I've known - and might easily go through their lives having done nothing more aggressive than lick people. But all it takes is one mistake.

I'm not suggesting anyone is 'unhinged' here, but the 'fur baby' types who treat these shark-jawed mutts with in-bred fighting instincts like teddy bears are certainly not very sensible. Irresponsible owners, in fact.

I'm not buying that anyone with even a modicum of sense would take that risk with a vulnerable toddler.

Thesharkradar · 09/05/2023 12:09

I'm not buying that anyone with even a modicum of sense would take that risk with a vulnerable toddler
But there's a lady on the thread who's very knowledgeable about dogs she has her bull breed rottweiler cross furbabies in bed with her and her human baby- surely you're not saying there's anything wrong with that, she loves her fur babies just as much as she loves her human baby, just like this person here:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2562020/Police-seize-family-dog-baby-killed-Wales.html
I’ve never heard anything like it. Sharon was in a state of shock and just screaming.
‘She just kept on saying, “The dog ate my baby’s head. The baby’s gone”.
‘She’d only brought the baby home in the last week. It is just awful. They loved their dogs as much as their children.’

Oh dear the 'nanny dog' went and riped the baby's head off, oh well at least you've still got the fur baby

Police seize family pet dog after six-day-old baby girl is killed

Sharon John, 42, was seen screaming in the street after her dog, an Alaskan Malamut, attacked her daughter, named locally as Eliza-Mae Martha Mullane.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2562020/Police-seize-family-dog-baby-killed-Wales.html

GreenwichOrTwicks · 09/05/2023 12:13

Plague of dogs where I love sands I have been bitten. I think w need a serious curb on dog ownership with max one walked per / compulsory registration and hefty fees to cover costs of all the dog waste

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 09/05/2023 12:18

This is incredibly horrid case, but having dogs muzzled in public would not have helped.

This was a family dog in a home setting.

cheekyffer · 09/05/2023 12:26

The ban on pitbulls needs to be extended to include related breeds, particularly XL bullies. Dog fighting is illegal, so why are descendent breeds kept today? They are capable of causing massive harm and have a high prey drive. They also tend to have a high pain tolerance, so this is why you see reports of a mauling that is difficult to stop, rather than a snap and release.

cheekyffer · 09/05/2023 12:36

SerafinasGoose · 09/05/2023 11:34

Another variation on the theme: 'I know my dog and he's as gentle as lamb'.

And when they attack: 'She's never done that before!'

Until they do.

These dog-types are bred with specific traits, and when they do home in they are capable of inflicting a great deal of damage. Likely as not they're as soft as they come - as are some of the SBTs I've known - and might easily go through their lives having done nothing more aggressive than lick people. But all it takes is one mistake.

I'm not suggesting anyone is 'unhinged' here, but the 'fur baby' types who treat these shark-jawed mutts with in-bred fighting instincts like teddy bears are certainly not very sensible. Irresponsible owners, in fact.

I'm not buying that anyone with even a modicum of sense would take that risk with a vulnerable toddler.

Couldn't agree more and have seen this working with a responsible rescue. Retrievers retrieve, herding dogs herd... if their instinct kicks in without much training you are looking at driving home with a stinking dog that jumped into a pond, or having to keep your dog leashed. With a bull breed the injuries can be catastrophic - torn muscle, broken bones and head/throat injuries.

Battersea Dogs Home has had a campaign to promote Staffies as family pets - unfair on the potential owners and the dogs: https://www.battersea.org.uk/pet-advice/dog-advice/finding-right-dog-you/staffies.^ "Staffies are softer than you think. They are friendly and affectionate and love nothing more than a fuss from their owners. Sometimes nicknamed the “nanny dog”, Staffies are also known for being patient with younger members of the family."^

They never were 'Nanny Dogs'. This phrase was used by John Colby, a breeder of fighting dogs, trying to broaden their appeal. This is a link to a newspaper article written after one of his 'Nanny Dogs' killed his nephew: https://blog.dogsbite.org/2010/05/1909-fatality-john-p-colbys-fighting.html

Staffies: Careful, they lick!

Forget what you’ve read: Staffies aren’t tough, they’re just tough not to love. Find out why one of these affectionate, playful dogs might be right for you.

https://www.battersea.org.uk/pet-advice/dog-advice/finding-right-dog-you/staffies

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 09/05/2023 12:50

Thesharkradar · 09/05/2023 12:09

I'm not buying that anyone with even a modicum of sense would take that risk with a vulnerable toddler
But there's a lady on the thread who's very knowledgeable about dogs she has her bull breed rottweiler cross furbabies in bed with her and her human baby- surely you're not saying there's anything wrong with that, she loves her fur babies just as much as she loves her human baby, just like this person here:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2562020/Police-seize-family-dog-baby-killed-Wales.html
I’ve never heard anything like it. Sharon was in a state of shock and just screaming.
‘She just kept on saying, “The dog ate my baby’s head. The baby’s gone”.
‘She’d only brought the baby home in the last week. It is just awful. They loved their dogs as much as their children.’

Oh dear the 'nanny dog' went and riped the baby's head off, oh well at least you've still got the fur baby

And in fact no law or any other restrictions could have prevented this tragedy.

I don’t understand why you are bringing this up, other than to inflame opinions.

mixedrecycling · 09/05/2023 12:52

RoseBucket · 08/05/2023 09:16

Maybe the video will help show the situation https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22284777/woman-mauled-dog-attack-east-london-euthanised-police/. (The dogs being shot isn’t shown)

That is heart breaking.

But I think the police did what they had to do to protect the public.

There's an XL bully near us who is scary, unpredictable and aggressive. After a couple of biting incidents, and several near misses, she is finally being muzzled while out. But only after the owners tried denying that there was any problem, and basically the police got enough evidence to insist (not sure on the legal process for that, but that's the dog owners word on the street!).

Thesharkradar · 09/05/2023 12:56

But only after the owners tried denying that there was any problem
What is really going on here?
Why do people become so mesmerized by these particular types of dogs?

Emotionalsupportviper · 09/05/2023 14:43

Chesneyhawkes1 · 08/05/2023 20:44

@Lacoeur it's not clear whether that actually happened I don't think.

The police statement said no one was taken to hospital. And someone who was "savaged" definitely would be.

Yes - I thought that "savaged" was an unnecessarily emotive word.

That's not to say that I think the police behaved inappropriately - I don't - but hyperbole doesn't help any situation. However I felt heartily sorry for whoever was frightened/ bitten/ nipped by these dogs, and even more sorry for the dogs themselves, with such a vile owner.

ThisOldThang · 09/05/2023 14:46

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 09/05/2023 12:50

And in fact no law or any other restrictions could have prevented this tragedy.

I don’t understand why you are bringing this up, other than to inflame opinions.

Er no.

If the breed were banned, this might not have happened.
If dogs over a certain weight were banned, this might not have happened.
If rehoming dogs were banned, this might not have happened.
If bringing infant children home to houses containing dogs were banned/restricted, this might not have happened.

I'd make it illegal to have unmuzzled dogs in public (with the exception of dedicated dog parks) with the dogs PTS if caught unmuzzled. That's the only way that owners would actually comply with the legislation.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 09/05/2023 15:36

ThisOldThang · 09/05/2023 14:46

Er no.

If the breed were banned, this might not have happened.
If dogs over a certain weight were banned, this might not have happened.
If rehoming dogs were banned, this might not have happened.
If bringing infant children home to houses containing dogs were banned/restricted, this might not have happened.

I'd make it illegal to have unmuzzled dogs in public (with the exception of dedicated dog parks) with the dogs PTS if caught unmuzzled. That's the only way that owners would actually comply with the legislation.

It didn't happen in a park, so discussing muzzles in a park is irrelevant.

Malamut are not classed as a dangerous breed, so that's not relevant.

The rest of your suggestions are utter nonsense.

Do you want to sterilise dog owners if you deem the breed they have dangerous or would you prefer to take their children away until they meet your parenting requirements?