My payslip as a doctor in Feb 2021 during COVID

[Juniordoc]

See attached image. Yes this is for full-time work with weekends and nights in the currently stretched working conditions that the NHS provides.

This does not include the expenses and sacrifices of a six year medical degree. On top of that, we have to pay out of pocket for our own GMC membership, medical defence union, postgrad exams and revision courses, conferences and courses.

Please get behind us and support the strikes. We are burnout, exhausted and struggling to live

Totally behind you.
suspect Covid Cath is a Tory boy with those amazing views dragged up from the fifties and sixties.
(PS. Dad was a GP, parents divorced when I was 13, like many of the Doctors from that era. Divorce rates are still higher than many other occupations)..

For the work you do £14 per hour is shocking. You must be emotionally exhausted and deserve a decent salary to account for that and the Government have to recognise that. I was a civil servant and was disgusted when MPs gave themselves 39% payrise few years ago. Thanks don't pay the bills but Thank You for all your hard work. The public is definitely behind you.

Because doctors are leaving in droves... it takes 5-6 years to train someone to F1 level. We need doctors, desperately.

@Mikex it's frustrating you post with such confidence when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about

No - it is the norm in the UK to be funded to do a clinical or STEM PhD.

My scenario - an untaxed salary of 16-22k is standard, as it was for the 30 other people in my cohort. I also recieved 40k over the four years for bench fees and other expenses, and had my tuition fees covered. This is paid for by bodies such as research councils (e.g., MRC) and Wellcome. It is highly unsual for someone to self fund a medical/STEM PhD.

As I said, once qualifiying, a 35-38k salary (band I/J) is then standard for a postdoctoral reseacher.

Far better conditions than that of medical students and newly qualified doctors.

For example:

https://wellcome.org/grant-funding/schemes/four-year-phd-programmes-studentships-basic-scientists

Our new PhD studentship stipend scales from 1 January 2023 are: If you're based outside London:
Year 1 £22,976
Year 2 £23,523
Year 3 £24,070
Year 4 £24,617

You are a student during this time and therefore get the added benefits. Once qualifying, you can then apply for postdoctoral posts at band I/J.

HTH @Mikex

Grades are absolutely not being reduced because doctors are leaving in droves. It is as always hugely competitive. You do need top grades as well as top scores in ridiculously difficult entrance exams. You also need to ace really tough interviews to prove you have the right qualities as well as the intellect. The only slight grade adjustments may be for applicants with contextual flags i.e. from disadvantaged educational and/or social backgrounds. These applicants are just as super smart and often real academic outliers given the challenges they have faced. You would never get past first base in a medical degree if you weren't at the top of the academic scale.

There's no shortage of applicants. The problem is not enough medical school places, not enough training places, a toxic work culture and not enough retention of doctors.

Well @WeAreBorg if I was able to retain medical knowledge, actually liked people and was a lot younger, then that would be a possibility. However it's not.
Look at it from the perspective of someone on minimum wage, a Doctor's earnings is substantially higher and therefore can seem like a huge amount.
You made me smile with your comment. I imagined you with hands on hips, snipping the comment out like a sarky grumpy teenager 😂

I’m already behind you. For a professional pressurised work load that’s disgraceful even without all the extra expenses you describe. Good luck

tona79
yes to a large extent you’re absolutely right but the burden of admin came in a long time ago. I remember when a “hospital manager” was first appointed at the large infirmary where my dad worked and it was a chap who had worked as a hospital porter and someone with zero clinical experience. Taking responsibility from nurses who ran wards with amazing efficiency and changing an established chain of command and most importantly, communication has been hugely detrimental to the NHS. The ward sister used to know who was coming and going and everyone knew who sister was. It’s comforting as a patient to know who is in charge. Seeing how things work (or don’t..) in hospital now is frightening. Despite all the technology available there seems to be a complete breakdown of information sharing and a lack of joined up thinking. It seems that each individual does their bit of the puzzle unaware of what other people have done/need to do. I’ve seen this with an elderly relative. Getting discharged with correct medication for example is a logistical challenge as nobody seems to have that job and there’s a lot of shoulder shrugging surrounding this role. The patient is being asked who they’ve seen/what was said/ what meds they were told they need. The patient is effectively being held responsible and with the growing elderly population and the problems that go with it such as dementia it’s no wonder the system is in gridlock. Sadly the NHS is no longer fit for purpose. And then there was the wailing demented old man who was left alone in a room with the door open, literally screaming and banging for everyone to hear. He was treated like an animal with no protection for his dignity which was extremely sad and distressing to witness. And to the facetious comments from WeAreBorg you have no idea. Going with my dad was my choice and a huge privilege. I had a front row seat to the stuff of TV documentaries. It was brilliant. Nobody babysat me and many older people who were not lucky to be visited by families used to love talking to a young person. We had wonderful conversations and I met people that I would never have ordinarily come across so it was learning about life and cultural differences between human beings and seeing stuff that school simply didn’t teach. I have several cherished gifts handmade by patients including a soft toy and paper flowers made by people who were effectively thanking my Dad. If that was typical of a 1970s doctor then yes, I’m extremely proud and lucky to have had one as my Dad.

I work for the NHS and wish I was on 28K though I do only work 37.5 hours a week and not 40? What about all the workers (not just in the NHS) that have jobs where they can't strike? The cost of living rise has hit a lot of people hard who aren't in a position to strike so how can they get a pay rise? I understand why they are striking but everybody seems to be trying to hold the country to ransom i.e. teachers, bus drivers, train drivers etc but the rest of us mere mortals can't.

The only people unable to strike are the armed forces and police. If you're NHS presumably you'll get a payrise off of the back of the strikes nurses and paramedics have done whilst you've done nought.

Any worker can join a union. There are only a few professions that aren’t entitled to strike (prison service, police).

I am getting tired of the attitude that anyone earning above minimum wage doesn’t deserve pay restoration (not rise).

Where is the incentive to study/train/dedicate a life to a career if the reward is just above minimum wage?

The world has gone mad. I teach at a top engineering school where students who go into finance/consulting generally earn literally (literally, literally) ten times those who go into health, research or sustainable development related careers. And whose starting salary is up to four times more than what my now end of career lecturer salary is. The country I live in prides itself on its healthcare system, but it’s fast going the way of the NHS. Why? What’s happening to people’s priorities? I support you 100% & those who say this is normal should take a good look at salaries in the financial sector.

Outrageous. I support you.

On a side note how do people still say things about 'not a bad wage for being a trainee' etc. fgs. They are not a trainee. They have been qualified for years a lot of them. I can't believe with all this going on for so long people don't understand this yet. I think the term for 'non consultant' or 'not specialised in a certain area' doctors needs to be changed as people just can't grasp it and tbh it is a bit undermining for the knowledge, skills and, a lot of the time, experience they possess.

There’s no point debating what’s a “fair” wage because “fair” is subjective.

The only relevant point is that UK-trained doctors can get better wages and conditions elsewhere. So who do you want treating you instead?

Tarantullah yes you're right. None of us did anything during covid apart from work on the covid wards without proper PPE so we don't deserve a pay rise. None of us shared toilets, staff rooms or communal areas with the nurses and doctors who were treating covid positive patients on our wards or comforted and supported the patients when they couldn't have visitors. Like shop workers etc who worked through covid to keep the country working - they all deserve more but can the government afford it?

MrsMurphyIWish yes I could join a union but prefer to spend what it would cost me monthly towards supporting my family. How many people in a specific job does it take to cause a strike? A lot I suspect - so I'd be paying monthly to be part of a union where the likelihood is that my profession wouldn't ever vote to strike. I have trained to do a job and choose to do it rather than get a better paid job because I support the NHS and the care it provides for everyone (as perhaps they do). Our junior doctors do a fantastic job and they do deserve a pay rise. My point was about other professions say cleaners, mortuary workers, porters etc who may be in unions but never vote to strike. They are trainees and will be paid accordingly when they qualify but they do deserve more than people who work in a shop on a till (not that I'm knocking them as they do an important job but on a different scale).

I had no idea until I read Adam Kay’s first book just how awful being a junior doctor was. I absolutely support you because not only is your pay insufficient for what you’re expected to do (if you were all paid for the hours you actually work the nhs would be dead in a week) but the conditions are unliveable. We’re losing so many doctors and nurses but people don’t see why or understand what’s going to happen when the nhs collapses - and let’s not beat around the bush, that’s what the Tories are making sure happens.

Where is the incentive to study/train/dedicate a life to a career if the reward is just above minimum wage?

But as many pp's have pointed out, if you dedicate your life to a career in medicine then you really aren't going to be earning just above minimum wage for very long.

Part of my role involves overseeing and advising on declarations of interest from consultants in my trust, including all private practice and other income earned in related fields. There is a LOT of scope for consultants to earn more than just their £100-£120k (not including any clinical excellence awards) NHS salaries and many of them choose to take full advantage of this. Even in specialties such as emergency medicine and ICU where traditionally there is little private practice, there is potential to earn extra through advising drug companies, private air ambulance, medico-legal etc. This additional work can and does bring them much more in line with (or far outstripping) other senior professionals in some of the sectors mentioned above.

I completely agree that conditions need to change for junior doctors, and along with other public sector workers there should be some move towards pay restoration (although 35% in one hit is ridiculous), but in my view there has been some disingenuousness on this thread about earning potential and it's not necessarily as clear cut as some of the tables posted above suggest.

@ChairFloorWall
You, like many in this country, seem to be obsessed with a race to the bottom

I have absolutely no idea where you have got this idea from!

Choosing not to strike when I was part of a union had nothing to do with any kind of race to the bottom. It was to do with the fact that I don't believe that strikes are the answer when the people who are most affected by them are the people who absolutely should not be affected.

You are right that strike action has achieved much historically.

But when you say The gov clearly aren’t interested, strikes are a last resort to maybe make people sit up and notice. It’s not about not being a “soft touch” such as yourself, it’s about not letting our health care as we know it sink into the ground and die, I think you're wrong. I think people do sit up and take notice, but not necessarily in the way that you might hope. I think a lot of people (MN is not representative of the general public) just feel very pissed off with them. I also personally believe that the strikes will be the thing that finally cause the NHS to "sink into the ground and die", rather than preventing it.

Also, I'm starting to feel that a key driver for me in wanting to get all this satisfactorily resolved (and I'm looking at you too, teachers!), is that I might never again need to read the phrase 'leaving in droves' 😂

@CovidCath times have changed. My father was also one of those surgeons but they had huge job satisfaction, control over their job, respect and lots of fun and could just get on with their job. They also got free meals, beds on their oncalls and free hospital accommodation which though sounds minor made them feel wanted and cared for. Now there’s too much red tape and no one can do the job they want to do and went into the profession for. On top of that the money isn’t appropriate for what they go through/sacrifice. back then their Salary allowed a better life as things were cheaper but now the brightest hardest working who are saving our children and parents life are struggling to make ends meet. Ur not a consultant until 10-15 years out of med school by which time your late 30s

Other countries pay better and look after their doctors. That’s why so many are leaving

Perplexing that you find glibness in "leaving in droves". I personally find it frightening but do find "the key driver" quite cringe invoking. Each to their own.