My payslip as a doctor in Feb 2021 during COVID

[Juniordoc]

See attached image. Yes this is for full-time work with weekends and nights in the currently stretched working conditions that the NHS provides.

This does not include the expenses and sacrifices of a six year medical degree. On top of that, we have to pay out of pocket for our own GMC membership, medical defence union, postgrad exams and revision courses, conferences and courses.

Please get behind us and support the strikes. We are burnout, exhausted and struggling to live

@Bernardo1 do you think doctors and a supermarket employee are a fair comparison?

If the comparison is not a fair one and can't be scrutinised, perhaps the Pret worker comparison and the op's teacher comparison were not fair either?

Supermarket workers are not going to fill the gap when the doctors leave. More loved ones will be lost in the long term not just on the strike days if we don't address the working environment doctors face daily. Restoring the pay could stop doctors leaving thereby avoiding dwindling staff numbers. Who do you think would fill the gap if they left and how quickly do you think that would happen? It's foolish to not retain doctors after training them.

Rather than striking, if they don't like their job, they could leave and follow another profession.

@Mikex Do you not appreciate what the problem would be if the majority of doctors did this?

This is what's happening, the conditions are so bad that we cannot retain doctors. It doesn't matter whether you think the job is fine or not.

A consultant from Australia wrote in to one of the major newspapers this morning, pointing out that over 25% of his department were trained in the NHS and if we couldn't keep them, they'd be happy to offer them jobs instead.

@tona79 @Juniordoc I really don’t have enough real experience and data to comment in detail and with confidence but what tona79 is proposing sounds like an excellent idea.

Assuming people do go into these professions for the work and not the money (of course you want to live comfortably and have some balance in life but if it’s about the money, nothing wrong with that btw, there are many other professions more suitable to that effect) forcing the change by cutting the crap and only doing the core jobs that you were qualified for (no admin and any other non-core activities you might be doing) seems like a powerful tool.

Of course this approach would require extreme organisation and planning and is harder the further along the mess is but somehow it feels more powerful. You are doing your jobs, if things start falling over because of missed admin, the message seems so much stronger.

But it will though. I (and many others) don't actually want to leave the UK but circumstances are making me consider it and for many others they've already left/due to leave. Medicine isn't like many other careers - we've breathed, dreamt, slept this stuff for decades. It is all-consuming. We go home and think about work. We spend hours and hours day and night studying. It's not as easy as "get another job" though we are fortunately very employable in other industries. Some people have left - I am part of a few of these groups "alternative careers for doctors" this was before I started training in my chosen speciality, which thankfully I love. Now, I would much rather work in this speciality elsewhere in the world than stay here and do something else. Sorry, I digressed.

Re: GP - my utmost respect to GPs, particularly those that do it well. In my insider opinion though, I guess anecdotally, I know of more people than I'd like who chose GP training for reasons other than out of passion (shorter training, geographically easier/can stay where they want/maintain a relationship etc, arguable better hours as no night shifts/weekends, and anecdotally given that I havent done GP training, a lot of people I have crossed paths with in hospitals havent got their training speciality of choice, applied a few times then went down the GP pathway). They now earn more than me as they are "GP consultants" if you will, whereas I am somewhere along my registrar training. In a way, I was very fortunate to get onto such a competitive speciality training and personally I'd have quit before becoming a GP. Its a bloody hard and thankless job but mainly because its not for me.

I wish it wasnt this way but it often is. By and large however, people dont "fall back on" a hospital speciality, I mean which one? Its a tough graft working antisocial hours etc, you do it because 1)this is what you actually want to do 2) its what you need to do become a consultant in this field etc.
This really isn't meant to patronise GPs at all, just my perspective as a hospital dr of coming across other drs in a hospital setting who've changed from what theyre doing to GP training. I also noticed psych had a similar trend (that said, one of my close friends from medical school is an exception and so so passionate about psychiatry) but the "entrance exam" scores are lower for psychiatry etc than they are for more competitive specialities.

Other's do PhDs for more years than the OP on a far lower income.

This is entirely untrue @Mikex - I have a STEM PhD in a medical field

3 year BSc (unpaid)
4 year PhD - salary of 16-22k untaxed
35k-38k starting salary as a postdoctoral researcher

Compared to a clinical doctor:
6 year MBBS (unpaid)
Possible postgraduate study (unpaid)
28k starting salary

It's not OK for MPs to have had a pay rise in the last the last 10 years. Certainly not a 30% pay rise.

The cost of living, house prices, fuel and heating prices are the both.

It's amazing how many people go on about inequality and how terrible it is. You know what will make the country more unequal? Giving doctors a massive pay rise.

Re: moving to Australia. For many of us, it is logistically difficult. A lot of us "junior doctors" are a fair way into our training and/or have families etc. If I was 10 years younger and single, this would be very attractive. I dont know anyone who's been turned down a job. One of the few perks of being a dr - we are basically needed everywhere in the world and medical practice is not dissimilar around the world (particularly developed countries).

I can't easily uproot my life though so I haven't left (yet). Many others have. In terms of the students coming through - I'd have thought 17/18 year olds today know the dire situation. Many may see it as a case of train here for medical school and get absorbed into the workforce abroad. The NHS is not an attractive place to work. Likewise for doctors from abroad. Foreign doctors need to do English tests and take our UK exams - theyre obviously some of the brightest from their countries of origin. If theyre able to do that, they're able to do exams for other countries/ go elsewhere. The UK/NHS is not attractive to them either especially when theres no family network here for them.

So what do we do when we have no doctors? Reduce the entry requirements to medical school? Reduce standards to employ anyone? Even if that was to happen, who's going to want to apply and work in these conditions? And the "standards" are there for a reason. Doctors who got all A*s struggle with the difficulty of medical school and post grad medical exams. Its tough for a reason.

MP salaries have increased by 30% in last 10 years

Why do you need to reduce entry requirements? I thought medical degrees are hugely oversubscribed with A* and able students.

I’ve got a family member who was a junior doctor about 25 years ago. They did 60-80 hours and were paid the same hourly rate as a hospital porter. It’s outrageous. It’s not just the pay, it’s the level of responsibility and pressure that is difficult. People are behind you. If you don’t get more pay less people will go into the profession.

You don't need a PhD to be a teacher. You don't necessarily need an MSc in a related subject either. In independent schools you don't even need to have a teaching qualification for some posts.

You do need 5 or 6 years at medical school to be a qualified doctor.

I'm not rubbishing teachers in any way but if you want to compare the lowest entry point into the two professions, these are the facts.

Gateway to medicine is specifically for widening access for under represented groups, not because people aren't clever enough to get the A Levels 🙄

have not read full thread but you are foundation grade which is between medical school and fully qualified doctor. My late father was a fully qualified surgeon FRCS. You will live like this for a long period then have the opportunity to make A LOT of money in future. My father worked long hours for his entire career, on call for the NHS one week in four as a senior consultant which meant calls in the middle of the night and included emergency surgery - in his late 50s and early 60s. The training years ARE GRUELLING and they’re meant to be! This isn’t a 9-5 job!! He rarely had even a week off in 40 years and dedicated his life to his work. Every weekend as a child I went with him to follow him on Saturday and Sunday ward rounds as that was the only opportunity I had to spend time with him and I loved it. We never had family weekends in the park or at football or just a walk like normal families. We always had to be available for Dad to rush in. You knew the gig when you signed up. Dad also had amazing relationships with his colleagues who went through the mill with him and has hilarious stories from weeks without decent sleep to surgical training in the mortuary to social meet ups with the local college nurses who also lived in and had strict rules to live by. Despite the hardships he had a great time and wouldn’t have changed any of it! This is the reality of medicine. Get on with it or get out.

Junior doctors salaries increased 31% since 2010. That backfired.

I'm not saying it hasn't happen, I'm saying it shouldn't have happened. What have they done to deserve a 30% pay rise? And "expenses" as well. They're leeches, parasites, grifters.

@DiabolicalDee lately given the vitriol directed against doctors, an increasing number of A* students are exploring other highly paid careers in banking, tech, law, etc. Yes, some are still pursuing medicine but current working conditions and its impact on mental health have been putting off a large number of potential applicants.

Simply channel the mindset of a typical male surgeon from the seventies, bring your kids to work - ask the patients to watch them for a couple hours while you operate, then return home to your housewife!
These lady doctors don’t know they’re born these days eh Cath?

Agreed that you cannot compare a medical degree course with the various different paths into teaching. Where there is comparison to be had is that both the OP as a doctor and myself as a state teacher work for state run / funded organisations that are de-centralised.
In both cases these organisations have become increasingly admin top heavy and hugely wasteful, one result of this is that money that could have gone to the frontline (ie Drs, Nurses, Teachers) is spend elsewhere in eyewatering ammounts. Another result is that the workload on the individual practitioner, be that an educator or a medic is exponentially increasing.
In both workplaces there is burnout, mental health issues, staff retention issues, staff recruitment issues. So whilst we provide different services there are similarities in part because of the state funded arrangements.
Problem is, and I'm sure the OP would agree, its not all about pay, sure more money is very nice, but if your job is hell, your MH and home life is suffering it will be only a short term fix, boost moral for a day or two until everyone realises its still shit!

My first GP was an old school doctor, worked on his own with his wife who was his nurse. You went to his house for surgery appointments, waited in the lounge and he saw you in the kitchen.
You would often see him around the town with his shiny black bag making housecalls, often late into the evening. I remember talking to him once and him telling me how much he loved his job and loved helping people.
There is no doubt, just like your dad, it was in no way a 9-5, it was a vocation, a lifestyle - but I wager the work was rewarding, un-burdened by admin and taget/appraisal stresses and had a great sense of achievement.
That alas seems to be what has gone.

Do you know how "abroad" pays more? They are part or fully insurance-based healthcare systems. Perhaps we should consider that too?

Foundation doctors aren't trainees. They are qualified doctors who have not yet started their specialisms. Like newly qualified teachers. In fact, NQTs earn not much less than this. Also most trainees do not work on average 48 hours a week.