Page 35 | My payslip as a doctor in Feb 2021 during COVID

Juniordoc · 2023-04-12T17:30:50+00:00

See attached image. Yes this is for full-time work with weekends and nights in the currently stretched working conditions that the NHS provides. This does not include the expenses and sacrifices of a six year medical degree. On top of that, we have to pay out of pocket for our own GMC membership, medical defence union, postgrad exams and revision courses, conferences and courses. Please get behind us and support the strikes. We are burnout, exhausted and struggling to live

rubbishatballet · 14/04/2023 09:22

Haha fair cop @Hogsinhoodies I'll take that re key driver!

I have every sympathy with the underlying sentiment of leaving in droves, but it's used so tritely on MN at the moment (and very rarely with any evidence provided to support it) that it now makes me cringe every time I read it.

ChairFloorWall · 14/04/2023 09:56

50percentunidad · 14/04/2023 08:35

@ChairFloorWall
You, like many in this country, seem to be obsessed with a race to the bottom

I have absolutely no idea where you have got this idea from!

Choosing not to strike when I was part of a union had nothing to do with any kind of race to the bottom. It was to do with the fact that I don't believe that strikes are the answer when the people who are most affected by them are the people who absolutely should not be affected.

You are right that strike action has achieved much historically.

But when you say The gov clearly aren’t interested, strikes are a last resort to maybe make people sit up and notice. It’s not about not being a “soft touch” such as yourself, it’s about not letting our health care as we know it sink into the ground and die, I think you're wrong. I think people do sit up and take notice, but not necessarily in the way that you might hope. I think a lot of people (MN is not representative of the general public) just feel very pissed off with them. I also personally believe that the strikes will be the thing that finally cause the NHS to "sink into the ground and die", rather than preventing it.

I got the idea from you saying you signed up for crap conditions and are happy to stay in crap conditions. Why would anyone want that for themselves? Aim higher for you and those around you.

My mum was a mental health nurse for over 25 years and begged me never to go into healthcare. The toll it took on her I can’t even express. So yes, I don’t think people should settle for crap conditions just because.

Fine for you not to support the strikes, but I personally believe that that attitude is selfish in the long term. You can say whatever you want about those who might be impacted by the strikes today, but what about the many more people who will suffer because there isn’t enough (there already isn’t - 150,000 vacancies atm overall) drs, nurses, etc. in the U.K. due to the bad conditions and pay.

Loudhousefun · 14/04/2023 10:23

Cleaners in my area charge £15 per hour. I fully support you and it makes me so angry that a job which entails saving lives is undervalued by our government.

Wonderfulstuff · 14/04/2023 10:24

Nothing to add but just wanted to say that I support your OP. I work in a the city and our grads - who have only done 3 years of study - earn more. And yes they are not the finished article and yes they will go on to earn a lot more but if they are not paid a decent salary now that will cover their rent, travel expenses and afford a lifestyle that makes the long hours feel worthwhile how will they enter the industry and develop their skills and knowledge.

Pepsiewomen · 14/04/2023 10:30

This is your payslip for Feb 21 could you show us your wage slip for February this year if you don't mind.

Blossomtoes · 14/04/2023 10:40

Pepsiewomen · 14/04/2023 10:30

This is your payslip for Feb 21 could you show us your wage slip for February this year if you don't mind.

Why? Do you think junior doctors’ salaries have miraculously increased in two years? That’s the entire point of the strike - they’re worth a third less now than they were in 2010.

CandleInTheStorm · 14/04/2023 10:50

Addidas · 14/04/2023 08:50

@CovidCath times have changed. My father was also one of those surgeons but they had huge job satisfaction, control over their job, respect and lots of fun and could just get on with their job. They also got free meals, beds on their oncalls and free hospital accommodation which though sounds minor made them feel wanted and cared for. Now there’s too much red tape and no one can do the job they want to do and went into the profession for. On top of that the money isn’t appropriate for what they go through/sacrifice. back then their Salary allowed a better life as things were cheaper but now the brightest hardest working who are saving our children and parents life are struggling to make ends meet. Ur not a consultant until 10-15 years out of med school by which time your late 30s

Other countries pay better and look after their doctors. That’s why so many are leaving

What kind of red tape are they having to go through? Is that the Tories implementing it?

Pepsiewomen · 14/04/2023 11:10

Hi
Do you think a 35% pay rise sounds fair and that the ordinary public have to pay for it especially with the cost of living as it is today because if you get your 35% what happens then the cost of living goes up again and the public have to pay more and most of them didn't even get a pay rise .....do you think that's fair and those on benefits they are suffering as it is they can't afford to eat most of the time.
Why don't you ask for a pay rise that is fair for everybody even the nurses didn't ask for that amount and settled on less than they had asked for.
I agree you deserve a pay rise just not the amount your asking for

ReadersD1gest · 14/04/2023 11:14

Pepsiewomen · 14/04/2023 11:10

Hi
Do you think a 35% pay rise sounds fair and that the ordinary public have to pay for it especially with the cost of living as it is today because if you get your 35% what happens then the cost of living goes up again and the public have to pay more and most of them didn't even get a pay rise .....do you think that's fair and those on benefits they are suffering as it is they can't afford to eat most of the time.
Why don't you ask for a pay rise that is fair for everybody even the nurses didn't ask for that amount and settled on less than they had asked for.
I agree you deserve a pay rise just not the amount your asking for

Are you seriously comparing doctors salaries with those on benefits?

spinachy · 14/04/2023 11:19

Pepsiewomen · 14/04/2023 11:10

Hi
Do you think a 35% pay rise sounds fair and that the ordinary public have to pay for it especially with the cost of living as it is today because if you get your 35% what happens then the cost of living goes up again and the public have to pay more and most of them didn't even get a pay rise .....do you think that's fair and those on benefits they are suffering as it is they can't afford to eat most of the time.
Why don't you ask for a pay rise that is fair for everybody even the nurses didn't ask for that amount and settled on less than they had asked for.
I agree you deserve a pay rise just not the amount your asking for

35% is pay restoration, not a rise @Pepsiewomen

I think this is a really important point that is being missed (despite many posters sharing their salary 10 years ago, or the graphic which shows salaries of different professions over the last decades)

spinachy · 14/04/2023 11:21

even the nurses didn't ask for that amount and settled on less than they had asked for.

And again - this was because nurses had not been subject to the same level of pay cuts over the past years, therefore pay restoration was less @Pepsiewomen

they are literally just asking for what should have happened automatically, just like it did for other professions where the salaries rose with the cost of inflation

DrPrunesquallor · 14/04/2023 11:50

23holia · 13/04/2023 23:45

Because doctors are leaving in droves... it takes 5-6 years to train someone to F1 level. We need doctors, desperately.

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There would be little point in reducing entry requirements unless the Govn wised up and allowed more places for medical students.
The Govn subsidise medical training and are in control of the numbers.

spinachy · 14/04/2023 11:52

DrPrunesquallor · 14/04/2023 11:50

There would be little point in reducing entry requirements unless the Govn wised up and allowed more places for medical students.
The Govn subsidise medical training and are in control of the numbers.

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But isn't the issue with having enough placements for F1/F2 doctors?

I believe there were already medical graduates last year who were not able to get to foundation year training placement in hospitals due to this

DrPrunesquallor · 14/04/2023 11:55

Pepsiewomen · 14/04/2023 11:10

Hi
Do you think a 35% pay rise sounds fair and that the ordinary public have to pay for it especially with the cost of living as it is today because if you get your 35% what happens then the cost of living goes up again and the public have to pay more and most of them didn't even get a pay rise .....do you think that's fair and those on benefits they are suffering as it is they can't afford to eat most of the time.
Why don't you ask for a pay rise that is fair for everybody even the nurses didn't ask for that amount and settled on less than they had asked for.
I agree you deserve a pay rise just not the amount your asking for

Doctors are Not asking for a pay rise.
Other jobs and people on benefits are no comparison.
If 40% of people on benefits leave the country will those remaining start dying through lack of their care!

DrPrunesquallor · 14/04/2023 11:57

spinachy · 14/04/2023 11:52

But isn't the issue with having enough placements for F1/F2 doctors?

I believe there were already medical graduates last year who were not able to get to foundation year training placement in hospitals due to this

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This is because there are not enough Consultants.
So many have left or given up on the NHS and are working in the private sector. Who’d blame them.

Most people would move to a job with better pay and less stress.

DrPrunesquallor · 14/04/2023 12:05

ProudGranof1 · 14/04/2023 08:24

Tarantullah yes you're right. None of us did anything during covid apart from work on the covid wards without proper PPE so we don't deserve a pay rise. None of us shared toilets, staff rooms or communal areas with the nurses and doctors who were treating covid positive patients on our wards or comforted and supported the patients when they couldn't have visitors. Like shop workers etc who worked through covid to keep the country working - they all deserve more but can the government afford it?

MrsMurphyIWish yes I could join a union but prefer to spend what it would cost me monthly towards supporting my family. How many people in a specific job does it take to cause a strike? A lot I suspect - so I'd be paying monthly to be part of a union where the likelihood is that my profession wouldn't ever vote to strike. I have trained to do a job and choose to do it rather than get a better paid job because I support the NHS and the care it provides for everyone (as perhaps they do). Our junior doctors do a fantastic job and they do deserve a pay rise. My point was about other professions say cleaners, mortuary workers, porters etc who may be in unions but never vote to strike. They are trainees and will be paid accordingly when they qualify but they do deserve more than people who work in a shop on a till (not that I'm knocking them as they do an important job but on a different scale).

They are not trainees.
They are qualified doctors.
The word Junior does not mean junior in the sense that most people assume.
please read OPs full thread for a clear explanation and examples.

henlee · 14/04/2023 13:36

How much does it cost to put someone through medical school?

The UK taxpayer's money is being wasted because we're training them up in the UK and hemorrhaging them abroad.

The current working conditions are not good enough to retain doctors.

Whether you agree or disagree with their working conditions/pay and strike action, it's pretty irrelevant given this is the situation we're in.

Tarantullah · 14/04/2023 13:40

henlee · 14/04/2023 13:36

How much does it cost to put someone through medical school?

The UK taxpayer's money is being wasted because we're training them up in the UK and hemorrhaging them abroad.

The current working conditions are not good enough to retain doctors.

Whether you agree or disagree with their working conditions/pay and strike action, it's pretty irrelevant given this is the situation we're in.

We also poach doctors from abroad of whom the NHS or this country has not paid to train. Last year more foreign trained doctors registered than UK trained, so I don't really see the validity of this, we take in far more than leave to work abroad. Its also morally dubious as the amount we recruit from abroad exceeds WHO recommended numbers; something wrong about recruiting doctors from developing countries which then leaves their country's short just avoid paying doctors a fair wage. Let's not talk about that though eh.

henlee · 14/04/2023 13:48

Tarantullah · 14/04/2023 13:40

We also poach doctors from abroad of whom the NHS or this country has not paid to train. Last year more foreign trained doctors registered than UK trained, so I don't really see the validity of this, we take in far more than leave to work abroad. Its also morally dubious as the amount we recruit from abroad exceeds WHO recommended numbers; something wrong about recruiting doctors from developing countries which then leaves their country's short just avoid paying doctors a fair wage. Let's not talk about that though eh.

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Surely you can appreciate that as well as losing doctors abroad, the NHS is now finding it harder to recruit doctors from abroad because our conditions are far worse than other English speaking countries?

There are far better places to work as a clinician than in the UK. Our own graduates are more likely to leave, foreign graduates are less likely to come. This is a huge problem.

spinachy · 14/04/2023 13:51

Its also morally dubious as the amount we recruit from abroad exceeds WHO recommended numbers; something wrong about recruiting doctors from developing countries which then leaves their country's short just avoid paying doctors a fair wage. Let's not talk about that though eh.

Could start a seperate thread? This isn't a reason to not support strike action, or to be against pay restoration/improvement of working conditions @Tarantullah

Tarantullah · 14/04/2023 13:52

henlee · 14/04/2023 13:48

Surely you can appreciate that as well as losing doctors abroad, the NHS is now finding it harder to recruit doctors from abroad because our conditions are far worse than other English speaking countries?

There are far better places to work as a clinician than in the UK. Our own graduates are more likely to leave, foreign graduates are less likely to come. This is a huge problem.

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I agree with you they should be paid more absolutely, I just think the how much is their training is often used as a rationale for the opposite rather than as you have used it (your post is entirely sensible) meant to just quote the top bit.

CovidCath · 14/04/2023 14:03

Adidas I know all this snd I agree but it doesn’t change the fact that the NHS isn’t fit for purpose. Huge amounts of money are poured in and poorly managed. The government should attract the best talent in by funding nursing and medical training, looking after those people financially, providing junior doctors with accommodation until they qualify etc so all that cash isn’t wasted on recruitment of agency/bank staff. If people leave the profession within a given time frame, they pay back the cost of their training. It would stop the leakage of talent abroad as well as enticing bright people who would otherwise struggle with the financial burden of higher education. There is an added problem here called modern life - few people want that existence which isn’t dissimilar to being in the military for a period of time, as they want the freedom to live how they want. That’s entirely understandable, however it doesn’t help as the financial pressures that come with that freedom inevitably become too great a burden for young medics who are under tremendous pressure already. The mess we’re in now was predicted by staff years ago and as ever in this country, we don’t learn. It will take years to put things right and sadly, I don’t think our NHS will survive.

Pepsiewomen · 14/04/2023 14:06

ReadersD1gest
And all the others who think that the 35% is not a pay rise it is a pay rise just because they haven't had pay rises in so many years what they are asking for is still a pay rise and an unreasonable one as like I said it is stupid to think that 35% rise is an reasonable amount .
Also to the silly women who said to me that I said benefit payments are more important than junior doctors getting a rise well YES I do and if you don't maybe you should go to some of these benefit families homes and see how they don't manage on the measly amount of money they get but no one comes out and says they should get a rise
At least the junior drs will be on a lot of money in a few years or so but not families on benefits and before someone says they should get a job not everyone on benefits can work for numerous reasons

CriticalAlert · 14/04/2023 14:34

Pepsiewomen · 14/04/2023 10:30

This is your payslip for Feb 21 could you show us your wage slip for February this year if you don't mind.

Are you the Minister for Health? Do you consider that a good wage for a doctor in February 2021 - in the middle of the pandemic? I don't. I think it's a bloody disgrace. I was earning twice that in 2016 when I was a civil servant. These people have been trained FOR YEARS TO SAVE PEOPLE'S LIVES!!! How much more to you think they are earning now? This is why they are out on strike. But I don't suppose someone like you needs to use the NHS do they?

CriticalAlert · 14/04/2023 14:41

GreenSunfish · 13/04/2023 22:37

I’ve got a family member who was a junior doctor about 25 years ago. They did 60-80 hours and were paid the same hourly rate as a hospital porter. It’s outrageous. It’s not just the pay, it’s the level of responsibility and pressure that is difficult. People are behind you. If you don’t get more pay less people will go into the profession.

of course you are right. It is totally insane. The Tories want to destroy the NHS and this is a pretty good way of doing it.....and killing off a few of us poor/elderly/ill folk along the way.....

My payslip as a doctor in Feb 2021 during COVID

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