Page 32 | My payslip as a doctor in Feb 2021 during COVID

Juniordoc · 2023-04-12T17:30:50+00:00

See attached image. Yes this is for full-time work with weekends and nights in the currently stretched working conditions that the NHS provides. This does not include the expenses and sacrifices of a six year medical degree. On top of that, we have to pay out of pocket for our own GMC membership, medical defence union, postgrad exams and revision courses, conferences and courses. Please get behind us and support the strikes. We are burnout, exhausted and struggling to live

herlightmaterials · 13/04/2023 20:26

Mumofthreeteenagers · 13/04/2023 19:31

Some people are bonkers on here. You cannot compare what a doctor goes through with a clerical worker. Or a trainee something. most trainees dont work around the clock, deal with life or death. Death.

Get real! Most peoples salary increases with age and experience, dont take something out of context and say its ok. Its not! But i guess the people dissing op are the ones keeping everyone down.

Right behind you OP!

If dealing with death is inseparable from big bucks, why do nurses and paramedics (who bear increasing responsibility and came to their strike action with some maturity) earn relatively little throughout their careers?

Some jobs deal with death. Some jobs deal with child abuse, safe guarding or important legal matters. They all matter.

herlightmaterials · 13/04/2023 20:28

23holia · 13/04/2023 19:30

Hi, not OP. What it will attempt to achieve is staff retention. Currently, particularly out of hours - we bounce between the sickest patients for the entire 12 hours until the shift is over. The number of times you finally make it to the loo 7 hours in etc and your crash bleep goes off (i.e somebody's heart has likely stopped). You go to assess them. This involves examining, bloods including putting a venous cannula in as well as an arterial blood gas, reading their notes, chest compressions, making the decision to eventually stop or if we get a rhythm then making subsequent management plans. Documenting everything. Then going to your next most sick patient - perhaps a heart attack and/or a stroke, trying to decide which of the 759863 calls to get to first. Sometimes you prioritise wrongly. Mr X who's had his 6th fall in as many days who the nurses weren't particularly concerned about, you get there but actually he's pleasantly confused, you organise a CT head and see he's had a bleed on the brain. A nasty one but it was masked by his dementia. etc.

Many patients who you get called for just dont get seen to in the entire shift because you're fire-fighting, not quite close enough to dying to be seen. We need more of us. People have been leaving since I qualified and certainly more now than ever before. I too would consider leaving.

Re: why covid is relevant. We signed up to be doctors, but covid felt almost like being in the army. There was no protection for a long time. Many of us paid the ultimate price and died. It was terrifying going to work. Everyone else was terrified in the comforts of their home while being furloughed. We worked even more hours, broke bad news constantly, it was a lot mentally and then to lose your own colleagues +/- family/friends. I wouldnt wish it upon anyone.

I certainly think we deserve to be renumerated a lot more. From a personal POV, a lot of us are young and bright enough to change career paths. I dont want it to come to this, I would rather work in medicine but abroad before I did that.

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It won't achieve staff retention. Can we acknowledge that? It just won't. Look at General Practice. Great pay, they've just gone part time saying no money could make it worth it. It won't achieve staff retention. And it still won't be a patch on what they're able to earn elsewhere (without the same level of debt that doctors trained there are carrying).

herlightmaterials · 13/04/2023 20:31

OneMorePiece · 13/04/2023 18:49

The OP doesn't have to confirm anything to you. Stop making it personal. I don't think you understand unless you have been in their shoes doing the jobs they do daily in unsafe conditions. As for the barristers you speak of that were striking, they deal with crime and that again is an area that is poorly paid within the legal profession.

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The op literally opened with their pay slip.

Florenz · 13/04/2023 20:34

Lots of people deal with death and stress at work and we don't earn anything like what doctors do.

Christie70 · 13/04/2023 20:34

The pay is ok for a graduate beginner. Doctor pay rises sharply with experience with potential for high salary quickly - they are the highest paid public sector employee category. That’s why the 35% claim appears greedy.

The government is trying to block inflationary pay increases to reduce inflation quickly, which would benefit everyone not least those struggling most to eat and heat. Public sector employees traditionally value social conscience above salary. For the benefit of society at this point in time, docs should be more modest in pay demands, say 5% across 2 years with a clear intention to claw back ‘lost’ earnings over following years. Their union should concentrate on negotiating improved conditions of work eg hours, scheduling, shift patterns and staffing levels.

OneMorePiece · 13/04/2023 20:37

Snippit · 13/04/2023 20:09

My husband earned a meagre wage in his younger years whilst training and studying, his friends worked in the pits and earned a lot of money. Fast forward 40 years and he has a career and qualifications, and the pits are gone.

I’ve also read today that after 40 years service as a Dr in the NHS their pension is 75% of their salary. I worked in private industry and my pension was taken by the owners of the company. An NHS pension will never be stolen and they are very good.

trainees in most industries aren’t paid well in the beginning when still training. Unfortunately there’s a lot of sorting out needed in the NHS but a 35% pay rise is not affordable for anyone.

Maybe read the thread to understand the reasons for striking. Sorry to hear about your experience in the private sector but the doctors are asking for pay restoration not a pay rise. If you feel you have suffered injustice, surely you must understand the stance of the doctors whose salaries have eroded over time. If not 35% a figure in between? Surely you want doctors that are happy, highly skilled and well rested to treat you.

50percentunidad · 13/04/2023 20:48

Just a further idle question from me, @Juniordoc. Do you genuinely believe that Robert Laurenson represents you and what you believe to be your legitimate claim to a 35% pay rise, or is he a self-serving, independently educated, privileged young firebrand who has no real convictions and is playing at politics (while on holiday), using junior doctors as his pawns?

50percentunidad · 13/04/2023 20:50

Maybe read the thread to understand the reasons for striking

Anyone who reads the full thread will see that opinions vary, and that the 'truth' probably lies somewhere in between the extremes.

HuggingtheHRT · 13/04/2023 20:52

Have my support 100 per cent

Toomuchtrouble4me · 13/04/2023 21:03

Are you a junior doc?
It’s an entry level wage. What will you be on in 10 years? When doing a day or 2 private practice? More that a lot of people who suffer much worse jobs. You’ll be fine, as you well know, else you wouldn’t do it.

DrPrunesquallor · 13/04/2023 21:03

Supporting you all the way OP.
One of my DSs is about to join your ranks and he has been talking about the really appalling pay and you have posted the true reality here.

May I suggest you put this image out on the wider net. A newspaper will pick it up. Or post straight to the papers.

@OneMorePiece offered an interesting comparison with MPs

Blossomtoes · 13/04/2023 21:09

Toomuchtrouble4me · 13/04/2023 21:03

Are you a junior doc?
It’s an entry level wage. What will you be on in 10 years? When doing a day or 2 private practice? More that a lot of people who suffer much worse jobs. You’ll be fine, as you well know, else you wouldn’t do it.

How many jobs are there where you could literally kill someone? There are specialties that don’t offer the opportunity for private work - A&E and ITU doctors can only work in the NHS.

ChairFloorWall · 13/04/2023 21:10

50percentunidad · 13/04/2023 08:20

Perhaps enlighten me, if your historical knowledge is so much better than mine, rather than just sniping like a teenager?

Though if you have ever studied History, you will know that there is more than one way of interpreting historical events (I wouldn't even call them 'facts').

And quite regardless of the history of Trades Unions (which I do in fact know a fair bit about), I have just as much right not to strike and not to support strike action as you have to do the reverse.

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Who said anything about facts? You’re the first one to mention that word so why the quotations.

If you had studied history (like I did for 5+ years btw xx), you would probably be familiar with history repeating itself like it always does. Can you honestly say striking hasn’t achieved anything?

The fact is in real terms, every year health care workers, civil servants and many more are seeing real terms pay loss where as the MPs are giving themselves healthy pay rises every year. It isn’t what people signed up for. You can go in with every intention of sticking it out and being the best you can even in shit conditions, but why should the people we entrust our lives with live so appallingly?

You, like many in this country, seem to be obsessed with a race to the bottom. “I have it bad so why shouldn’t you?” - why not “I have it bad, so do you, let’s work together to improve both our lives”.

We all know legally strikes can only be about pay, which is the only thing you mention funnily enough, but indeed they are about much more. A doctor on this morning was highlighting people are dying because they cannot access the care they need because there’s a shortage of health care professionals. For nurses alone, there’s 45,000 vacancies. If the conditions and pay don’t improve, do you truly think anyone would want to stay in (U.K.) healthcare? And then what happens - conditions get even worse.

The gov clearly aren’t interested, strikes are a last resort to maybe make people sit up and notice. It’s not about not being a “soft touch” such as yourself, it’s about not letting our health care as we know it sink into the ground and die.

dcthatsme · 13/04/2023 21:13

titchy · 12/04/2023 18:40

I'd say that's a decent wage for a trainee.

FY doctors aren't trainees - they're qualified doctors, they just haven't yet started their specialism.

After 6 years of study and exams, being a grade A student at school? Some doctors work as junior doctors until they're well into their 30s and beyond if they don't become consultants. These guys are operating on you, looking after you in A&E. Many young people eg newly qualified electricians and plumbers earn more than this. A lot of leaners earn more than this.

dcthatsme · 13/04/2023 21:15

All I can say is 'What on earth is wrong with this country?' It's unbelievable how little we value the bright and dedicated people who are working so hard to save our lives and improve our health.

Silentmama · 13/04/2023 21:16

I'm a teacher.

Unfortunately in some settings what you describe is happening. A MAT - was 'reporting' how amazingly it had cut its supply costs and did not need an increase in budgets. How, how had it done this - it had put 3 classes in a hall - and used 'unqualified' staff to let students 'work through their own resources'.

This is not teaching - but is happening.

I have no idea why the person said 'we signed up for it' - perhaps they had not been in the job long. But I signed up to teach children and not do hours of random paperwork - that does no thing to improve student outcomes.

We work 'hours' after school - and at home and at weekends to keep the wheel turning. Its stressful - it has a huge impact on mental health.

Teachers are leaving - the workload being the main factor - the pay being another. To restore my pay level to 2008 - in real terms - I'd need a 30% uplift.
I'm scared that my job is un tenable - they have offered to increase my pay by 4.5%.. but only give the school 0.5% towards it! The school budgets are already cut - there was no uplift to cover the heating and electric increases.. Experience is being removed and replaced with unqualified folk - and support staff.. it is dire!

They are eroding training - it is now - 'comply' - teacher burn out of the newly qualified is rife. I'm convinced if you train to teach and only do a few years - they are chuffed - plenty more to take your place will limited pension payout!!

To 'fill the gaps' I like many teachers - buy resources.. buy students lunches - take home their social issues, with the fear that with the stretch their safeguarding issues fall though the gaps.

I stand with you - but don't pit us against each other!

And for anyone that 'shouts' the holidays - come do the job - we don't get paid for those holidays - and no one really 'enjoys them' too stressed catching up and prepping for the next term!!

Rugbyballhead · 13/04/2023 21:19

Doctors and other medical professionals are amazing! They save lives and help others every day. You keep fighting.
Medical professionals need paying appropriately.
Sadly the NHS will probably fail if there aren't positive changes made to the way it is run. E.g. how resources/equipment is purchased (I figure this is the least controversial bit to use as an example!)

JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon · 13/04/2023 21:22

OneMorePiece · 13/04/2023 20:20

Not fair to compare a FY1 doctor to a NQ solicitor either as the NQ solicitor's salary can be as high as £150k if in London and a NQ lawyer would have been earning as a trainee in the previous 2 years while the doctor is still at medical school incurring 20k debt each year the trainee solicitor is earning. Most law firms don't pay anywhere near that but a NQ solicitor can change employers unlike junior doctors who have no option other than the NHS or going abroad. Also both are different jobs and are therefore not comparable.

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I said "more accurate" to support the argument that junior doctors should be paid more than trainee solicitors.

I did not say the two jobs are the same.

thekingfisher · 13/04/2023 21:25

fullfact.org/health/bma-junior-doctors-hourly-pay/#actions

OneMorePiece · 13/04/2023 21:28

If it's ok for MPs to have had a 30% pay rise in the last 10 years, then I don't see how a request for pay restoration by junior doctors is unreasonable. Unless the end goal is privatisation, I would expect negotiations to start to address the crisis instead of shifting the blame onto the doctors. The doctors would probably settle for a lower figure but by avoiding starting negotiations, the demonisation of the workforce is damaging to healthcare in the long term. The doctors have kept treating us, our families and friends as best as they can while their numbers dwindle due to the cost of living crisis impacting them in ways not felt before. Please seek to understand instead of making assumptions. To the OP and other doctors, I would say some posters on here clearly don't understand so don't waste your energy on trying to make them understand as they clearly are entrenched in their views.

WeAreBorg · 13/04/2023 21:28

LackOfSleepCBA · 13/04/2023 20:02

I'm on minimum wage for almost 40hrs a week and earn just over £20,000 a year, so to me the doctor's earnings for the month look like a great pay to have. Upon looking up wages for doctors, which are below,I was amazed. To me personally, seem like huge amounts of earnings! I'd be very happy earning those amounts. But I also suppose it depends where you are in the country as to what your living costs will be.
I don't support striking, it's useless. It's the equivalent of a toddler tantrumming to get their own way and that's for anyone striking, not just doctors. If you don't like your pay, look to find another job or a different role.

Foundation training, you will earn a basic salary of £29,384 to £34,012 (from 1 April 2022).
If you’re a doctor starting your specialist training in 2022 your basic salary will be £40,257 to £53,398.
Specialty doctors and specialist payscaleIf you’re working as a specialty doctor you’ll earn a basic salary of £50,373 to £78,759. If you are a specialist grade doctor you'll earn a basic salary of £80,693 to £91,584.
ConsultantsAs a consultant from 1 April 2022, you'll earn a basic salary of £88,364 to £119,133 per year, depending on the length of your service.

Why don’t you become a doctor then if their pay is so amazing?

DrPrunesquallor · 13/04/2023 21:31

Juniordoc · 13/04/2023 12:20

Hi there,
Would like to give another perspective. Think of the school like the NHS so I can explain the current working conditions.

As a teacher, how would you feel if teachers started leaving your school. Initially you would now be covering multiple classes and teach simultaneously. The NHS (i.e school) in this example would force this upon you and you would have no choice to refuse.

At first, you would be forced to teach 2 classes simultaneously. You would feel very tired and stretched. The school would realise, hang on, this person can teach 2 classes simultaneously running in between classrooms. Even more teachers are leaving, let's now make her teach 3 classes simultaneously.

Again this would be forced upon you with no consultation. If you refuse, you are free to leave the school. But you need to pay the bills, have family and need to put food on the table. You stay.

You are now teaching 3 classes simultaneously for every session of the day. You end up staying later and later and leaving regularly at 7 or 8pm for which you get zero reimbursement.

And then your workload increases more and more. You eventually start breaking.

This is what working in the NHS is like. We are covering and working for more doctors than ever. We have to always stay late and are unable to see our families due to the lack of staff cover. We do not get any reimbursement for these extra hours and have to stay for the goodwill of our patients.

But there comes a point where you start breaking. Your soul is crushed. You are hated by your own government who can't look after you and your working conditions despite the blood, swear and tears you put in to serve the public and always do the best you can for your patients.

Your personal life starts suffering, your family starts suffering. You become a machine just designed to work and have no time for any activities/hobbies/family time outside of work.

Your life is sleep, work, sleep, work. Sometimes there is no time to eat. I have come back from long shifts absolutely exhausted at 10 or 11pm after having started at 8am, I just go straight to bed without eating.

I have lost 6kg weight in the last 3 weeks (unintentional weight loss)

We are being broken by the system and the strikes are to raise awareness. The public need to be aware the NHS is currently not fit for purpose and we eventually had to take some sort of stand

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Just felt the need to put @Juniordoc reply post back on again as this is an excellent comparison.
I hope you get more support than criticism.

Your job really can’t be compared with others, everyone at some point relies on your expertise, it really is a life or death job and the full 35% is the least you deserve.
Its not as if you’re actually asking for a pay rise
Good luck.

Fruby · 13/04/2023 21:34

So unfair

bozzabollix · 13/04/2023 21:38

Right behind you.

Bernardo1 · 13/04/2023 21:48

You knew the finances, the prospects before or during training. If not happy, go be a train driver.
Or maybe you always intended to move to Australia or tax free Gulf states.

The article I saw showed starting salary more than the highest supermarket employee, and in ten years double. Retail scales won't double in 10 years. Only some can become managers, hardly a great increase, whereas you'd likely become Consultant. Have ability to do a couple hours private work at xx time's hourly rate.

So no sympathy, other than, for families losing loved ones because!

My payslip as a doctor in Feb 2021 during COVID

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