How similar do you think the language of 1930s Germany is to the current Tory rhetoric on people crossing the Channel

[cakeorwine]

Using words like invasion,

Stigmatising people coming across the Channel

All the headlines in the news.

I think that we are moving towards language that does demonise people. No matter what you think, the language we use is important. And it's not just people who cross the Channel who face this behaviour

The language used during the 1930s was aimed at dehumanising the Jewish population in Germany.

It proved to be very effective. Easier to turn a blind eye or to actively turn to hate if you have been exposed to such language over the years.

The language used at the moment is aimed at dehumanising people.

Some may agree with that. Some may not. But you can read the words and hear the language being used at the moment. If you are paying attention to what is being said.

Australia had similar issues and accusations levelled at them around language. They ended the problem and stuck to their guns. If I want to live/work/visit another country I adhere to the rules and visa restriction of that country. The issue is divisive and there is a lot of anger - I disagree with what the government are doing and wish they would put their energy into providing safe and legal routes but the boat problem has to be solved.

Allow “these people” to claim asylum and determine their claim? If you were fleeing persecution wouldn’t you hope there would be countries humane enough to do that? Don’t you want our country to be that humane?

Yes

Every time we went to the USA they were so strict when we went on holiday

@Wizzbangfizz the only way to solve the boat problem is to provide safe legal routes. That wouldn't play with the Tories' voters, so they resort to shouting 'Stop the boats!', knowing full well that they can't. And people don't see through it.

The astronomic rise of the numbers coming in small boats can be directly attributed to Brexit - it placed the UK outside the Dublin convention. The Tories know this too - their voters apparently do not.

Absolutely, if we are feminists who value equality we really need to stop seeing men as having less right to be free from persecution and suffering than women. I also find the use of “fighting age men” really horrible, why should someone have to fight, be injured, injure other people, kill people and/ or die just because they’re relatively young and male.

The astronomic rise of the numbers coming in small boats can be directly attributed to Brexit - it placed the UK outside the Dublin convention. The Tories know this too - their voters apparently do not.

100%.

@kikisparks The "fighting age men" thing is actually revolting. Totally bombastic and raises my hackles. It's like men's lives are reduced solely to the language of militarism, and there's a PP that keeps using it. Redefine men's purpose, and it makes it easier to portray them as sub-humans not deserving of compassion.

Brexit at fault, yes - do voters care - no. Harsh but those are the facts. The people who want controlled immigration aren’t suddenly going to turn round and go “oh right it is Brexits fault let’s welcome undocumented migrants who are moving here for economic reasons with open arms” are they?

@pointythings isn't the rise in small boats also partly because of the crackdown on people arriving by lorry? Thousands used to, and hardly any do now.

If I want to live/work/visit another country I adhere to the rules and visa restriction of that country

and do you genuinely believe that refugees fleeing war have the same choices and opportunities that you do?
really?

@Wizzbangfizz again the conflation between economic migrants and refugees... If we had properly funded, properly staffed systems then we would be able to differentiate. We don't, because the government is happy to carry on shouting about foreigners 'flooding' and 'swarming' the country.

I have no respect for the people who are so hard of thinking that they do not understand this, and so lacking in human decency that they can't be bothered to read up on why things are the way they are.

@poshme considering that lorries coming into the UK are still not being checked even after Brexit, I'd be very surprised if people aren't still getting in on lorries as well.

@FurAndFeathers no I don’t and I do want and believe we should have safe legal routes go help those people. I don’t think a lot of people in those boats are fleeing war. DH isn’t British - he is now a British citizen but it has been a long hard and expensive road to get here. Had he jumped on a boat at Calais it would have been faster, cheaper and easier - what is happening on France isn’t fair on genuine refugees.

And what’s that assumption based on?

the vast majority of people entering the Uk are from Afghanistan, Syria and Ukraine.

do you think the wars in those countries are just a coincidence then?

Also - was your DH seeking asylum when he entered the UK? If not then I’m not sure what the basis for your comparison is?

it reads like “it was difficult and expensive for him so it should be difficult and expensive for everyone”

though I’m reasonably sure that being trafficked by people-smugglers is difficult and expensive

out of interest and since this thread is about language - what’s your definition of a “genuine refugee” and how do you assess that?

The politicians and journalists who are harsh and often demonizing toward immigrants and asylum seekers are usually the very same people who are harsh and often demonizing toward poor and vulnerable people at home. They portray immigrants and asylum seekers as 'invaders' and portray poor or ill and disabled people at home as 'scroungers' and piss-takers.

People aren't finding themselves unable to heat their homes or feed their families properly because of asylum-seekers, but because of government policies (combined, to be fair, with crises such as Covid and Ukraine). The same government that's promoting draconian policies toward asylum seekers. One and the same. And egged on by the same media and pressure groups.

I would compare it, not so much to the rhetoric used by Nazi Germany itself, as to the rhetoric used by politicians and journalists in other countries, including the UK, which caused many Jewish refugees to be turned away, and undoubtedly caused many deaths that could have been prevented.

So how are you going to solve the problem that is young men?

Try to not involve labels in your answer such as feminism or equality, because what these things mean seems to be both ambiguous and uninclusive of the experiences of poorer working class people in this country. Poor working class women are being forced into the sex industry in increasing numbers, because there is little else for them here, so please try to avoid moral tones and stick to reality and practicality.

There is in general far too much focus in these debates on moralising from well-off people, and not enough of the reality and practicality that dominates the lives of ordinary working people. This has been the case for a very long time. The reality is that most people here can barely afford a living as it is. The reality is that Britain is already overpopulated. Any discussion that starts without recognising these twin basic realities is irrelevant to most of us.

I don’t really understand what you’re talking about. If poor working class women are forced into the sex industry, which would be a horrific situation, how does that have a single thing to do with attitudes that young men should not flee persecution or war?

And I don’t know what you mean, what is “the problem that is young men”? Is every young male human being a “problem”?

Poor working class women have always been shat upon by the Tories. They hate us.

You don't know anything about me.

I do however recognise the power of language and how it's been used throughout history to turn people against others.

Which is the purpose of this thread - the power of language and the use of language.

It's not a difficult concept. It's well known that the sex industry has been growing, and it feeds off poor women. You can google for "sex industry growing" if you want to argue about that.

As for how does it relate to men, well obviously the sex industry DOES relate to men. The quote I picked up on talked about how we should stop demonising men, because they are so hard done to. The reality is that women always have harder lives than men. Women are also a major attraction for men (largely why women have harder lives) and the perceived looseness of western women may often be one of the attractions for men coming here from abroad, especially those from countries that like to treat women like shit. Once here those young men do cause issues, as young men in large groups always do. That last is not in dispute either, not where reality and practicality hold any importance.

And how does "knowing anything about" the great and wonderful you mean anything here? I merely picked up on the tone of posts so far.