How similar do you think the language of 1930s Germany is to the current Tory rhetoric on people crossing the Channel

[cakeorwine]

Using words like invasion,

Stigmatising people coming across the Channel

All the headlines in the news.

I think that we are moving towards language that does demonise people. No matter what you think, the language we use is important. And it's not just people who cross the Channel who face this behaviour

What makes you claim Britain is overpopulated? I can't see any evidence of that.

Most people can barely afford to live because of government policy/austerity not because of immigrants.

Brexit was meant to make the working class better off by removing the cheap labour undercutting UK workers. 7 years later, things are worse.

Why do you think reducing immigration is going to raise living standards for those in the UK?

The poor are poor for a reason. There may be numerous and complex reasons many of which are not their fault, but the causes of poverty are well known. One of those causes is that the poor are not well educated. That allows the media to feed them lines they are unable to think critically about. The current line being fed by the media is that the relative poverty of the indigenous working poor is the fault of other, even poorer people from overseas. The reason they believe this line is that they aren't smart enough to realise who is served by feeding them this line. And so they cast their votes for the ones whose rhetoric makes them feel good, whilst those in power have no intention of doing anything about addressing the actual underlying causes of poverty. And the cycle continues.

Well off?
Privileged?

Those seem to be your assumptions.

You got that very wrong.

Do you have a view on the use of language ?

The reason that many struggle with the cost of living is 13 years of Tory corruption, incompetence and fuckwittery @RaspberriesToYouToo. Not people who arrived in the country 5 minutes ago.

The Tories hate poor people and really hate poor, working class women.

@FurAndFeathers it isn’t up to me to define asylum and who deserves it - it part of what I pay an immense amount of tax to the government to do to run an effective and efficient system which they are failing to do in any way. It is also why we will shortly be relocating back to DH country (again following the expensive and legal visa route to get there). No he wasn’t claiming asylum and in answer to the relevance - there are rules and restrictions for good reasons so that people can be assessed and we know who they are and reject and accept them on the basis of fact and checks which is important to our national security. It isn’t xenophobic to want these things.

Well it is relevant.

In the 1930s "ordinary working people" in Europe dealing with a disastrous economic situation decided extreme political parties were the answer, and in doing so found themselves a scapegoat to blame for their situation. Only difference being they blamed a group who were not foreign born. So unless you're suggesting the working class(es) are stupid and genuinely don't understand why immigrants aren't responsible for the cost of living crisis, then the target of your anger is entirely misplaced.

Pointing out the realities of asylum seekers' lives is not "moralising", unless
you're just so far gone there's not a jot of compassion left in you. There's loads of posts on here setting out coherent arguments in defense of asylum seekers, so the fact you're automatically assuming these are "well off people" says a lot more about you than it does about them.

Any discussion that starts without recognising these realities (whatever your fucking class) and laps up the dangerous rhetoric and language around immigrants is contemptable IMO.

pointythings
The astronomic rise of the numbers coming in small boats can be directly attributed to Brexit - it placed the UK outside the Dublin convention

Is Brexit responsible for Germany's lack of success with Dublin?

Germany unable to send back most migrants under 'Dublin' rules

www.infomigrants.net/en/post/46133/germany-unable-to-send-back-most-migrants-under-dublin-rules

www.infomigrants.net/en/post/46133/germany-unable-to-send-back-most-migrants-under-dublin-rules

But you’re the person who used the label “genuine asylum seeker” what do you mean by that? You are clearly implying that there are non-genuine asylum seekers - I don’t really understand that point of view - so an explanation would be helpful.

its wonderful that your husband has the opportunity and resources to choose to be a legal migrant. But I don’t see how that experience is relevant to the situation of people arriving on boats, or trafficked into the UK? Most of whom come from countries experiencing war.

I’m not sure if you’re confusing me with a different poster. Has someone else called you xenophobic? I haven’t. As has already been discussed on this thread labels and ‘othering’ isn’t a very constructive basis for discussion.

all I’ve done is ask you questions. You don’t really seem to want to answer them so it’s tricky to better understand your perspective.

I agree that there need to be rules and restrictions - but I think those rules need to align with international law and principles of human rights. Treating people arriving on boats as less than human, denying trafficked people support, breaking international conventions and law and using labels like ‘swarm’ and ‘invasion’ are dangerous and not representative of the British values that I identify with.

@Clavinova without a breakdown of the reasons for the failure of those takeback requests, that information is meaningless.

Nobody said Dublin was perfect, btw. But it's better than nothing. Which is whay the UK has.

Could you define the ‘problem’ of young men - I’m not aware of it. Links and evidence would be helpful.

ditto re: poor working class women being forced into the sex industry by the cost of living crisis and 13 years of Tory austerity? How does that relate to people arriving on boats please?

@FurAndFeathers the idea is that because they are young men, they must be economic migrants. The concept that they are travelling because they are best able to handle the dangers, can seek asylum, establish themselves and then go for family reunification hasn't occurred to people because they don't think beyond three word slogans.

There's also the idea that because they are young men, they must all be sexual predators after British women and girls. Which isn't a racist idea at all.

And didn't you get the memo that austerity is good and necessary, and that people who are in poverty because of it should just have worked harder?

pointythings
Nobody said Dublin was perfect, btw

4,000 returns from 68,000 requests is quite a bit less than 'perfect'.

@Clavinova and I said that figure was meaningless without a breakdown of the reasons behind the failure of the returns... But I know you don't do answers.

@RaspberriesToYouToo .
Poor w/c women normally come from poor w/c areas. Little investment, few jobs above NMW, poor schools with questionable teaching and discipline, low aspiration households, lack of opportunity to retrain. The list goes on. Conservatives have had 13 years to really tackle this but have spent more time dealing with brexit and stoking a culture war revolving round immigration and gender woo.

pointythings
and I said that figure was meaningless without a breakdown of the reasons behind the failure of the returns...

I think the numbers speak for themselves;

According to Home Office figures, between 2015 and 2018, 7,365 incoming requests were made to transfer people into the UK under the Dublin regulation, from which 2,365 people were transferred to the UK (some requests may still be pending).
This means that the UK accepted around 33% of requests. During the same period, the UK made 18,953 outgoing requests to transfer people to other Member States, from which 1,395 people were transferred abroad. This amounts to around 7% of outgoing requests by the UK resulting in a transfer.
In 2018, the UK received a total of 37,453 asylum applications, and made 5,510 outgoing transfer requests under Dublin III. Of these 5,510 requests, 209 migrants were transferred out of the UK under Dublin III, whilst 1,215 came in, making the UK a net recipient in 2018.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/what-is-the-dublin-iii-regulation-will-it-be-affected-by-brexit/

in 2022 Germany tried to send back over 68,000 migrants to other EU countries under rules governed by the Dublin accords. The majority of those attempts failed.
Just 4,158 asylum seekers in Germany were sent back to other EU countries where they had first claimed asylum in 2022.

in 2021, Germany issued 10,427 take back requests to Greece, but just one person was actually returned. Germany also issued 6,623 requests to Italy in 2021, and just 287 were taken back.

www.infomigrants.net/en/post/46133/germany-unable-to-send-back-most-migrants-under-dublin-rules

I might be dim but I don’t really see what this has to do with the thread on the language used by the government to describe people arriving on boats.

@Clavinova no, those figures do not speak for themselves. They don't say anything. The implication is clear: the denials of so many takeback requests was clearly for spurious reasons. That is an assumption, hence my desire to see the actual reasons.

@FurAndFeathers the language is a symptom of the disease. The disease is a refusal to accept that actually, the numbers of people fleeing war and oppression in their home countries really is that high, so they must all be 'economic migrants'. And that is the narrative that has been spoonfed to the public by our right wing press.

Thanks - I appreciate that you keep answering the questions I’m asking if other posters but I’d actually really like to hear and understand their viewpoints 😊

@FurAndFeathers you're on a hiding to nowhere there, I'm afraid. Given that this is how we treat our refugees and people seem to approve I don't think there's a lot of hope of any of the antis on this thread discovering their conscience.

And I appreciate your point of view but it’s not mine - thanks

So is it British men doing the raping and claiming no knowledge of the trafficking

The UK managed to return many more failed asylum applicants under the Dublin Regulation than we do now!🤯 So much for "Vote Brexshit to take back control of our borders".

The Tory party really fucked the UK up.