Epsom College Murder Suicide

[PleaseStopSayingHuBbY]

I'm shocked but not surprised. This world is depressing and scary for women.

In my experience, men from secure middle class backgrounds can absolutely be as bad.

Look at how respectful the prospective partner is to his mother, that can give a good clue.

Run for the hills if he speaks to her in a derogatory way or if him and his father act as though they are superior and mock her. One day that will be you.

Men absorb the attitudes that underlie violence against women with the air they breathe. It's everywhere. They may have had the best home life and role models imaginable, but unless they have grown to manhood in a bubble, with no access to the many societal messages that demean and devalue women, they are at risk of absorbing those messages and acting on them. Many men manage to reject those messages and treat women with respect, but it is often as much pure luck as anything to find one as a life partner.

Don't ask why women pick men who abuse and don't ask why women don't leave men who abuse. Ask why men abuse.

There's no distinction on background in terms of class. Money doesn't make an abuser or not.

A poor background for these purposes is a dysfunctional family set up. Those you can see, very early on. Money isn't a proxy for good behaviour.

@fairypeasant are we reading the same thread?

What quite a few of us on here have said is that we did, without being aware of it at first, pick that sort of man.

If there's any victim-blaming going on, we're blaming ourselves - and believe me, I've done my fair share of that.

I don't recall anyone mentioning class, and of course coercive control and domestic abuse occurs in all walks of life. My H is a middle-class professional. Still an abusive aresehole though.

@fairypeasant No that's not what's being said.

No One has mentioned class or wealth and I have encountered abusive men from all walks of life. Emma's partner certainly appeared to be 'middle-class' and respectable (whatever that means).

Equally, nobody is saying that just as you come from a dysfunctional family, you will be an abuser, but I WILL say that if you were raised in a house that was 'ruled' by an entitled, misogynistic, man who thought his wife was there to absorb his rage, you ARE more likely to to be abusive in future relationships. So there is every reason to look at how a man was raised before assuming his moral compass is going to align with yours.

There is a poll here asking how many of us have ever experienced DA.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4739139-quick-poll-of-mners-around-domestic-abuse-no-details-needed?reply=123771734

Based on this thread, I think the percentage of 'yes' will be higher even than worst case estimates.

I think stigmatising certain childhoods, or those that come from "dysfunctional" families, is disgusting.

A man who has a poor relationship with his mother because she was abusive, or addicted, or poor at parenting, is unworthy of your daughters? This is victim blaming. I'm referring to where a poster said she knew her daughter's boyfriend was a badd'n because his mum had been married multiple times. No one should be blamed for their parents poor choices. This is that same schtick that all of those who are sexually abused go on to sexually abuse their own kids- it's just crap.

There aren't "dysfunctional" families, and the right sort of family, where you'll be protected from abuse. It doesn't work like that.

I don't know why you're bringing class into it. The abusive man I mentioned came from a comfortable, middle class and outwardly stable background. He had a good education, middle class job and was well paid with a nice house and car. The reality was anything but middle class respectability. Abusers can be anyone. I've missed it if anyone says they aren't.

I'm referring to where a poster said she knew her daughter's boyfriend was a badd'n because his mum had been married multiple times. No one should be blamed for their parents poor choices.

Fair enough, but there are some red flags in some family dynamics. I also believe that abuse goes through the generations in some families, but not all obviously. I wish the family courts would try to break that cycle, but they rarely do. Apparently having contact with your abusive dad is more important than the bad influence they will inevitably be.

@fairypeasant You have no idea how much we welcomed him into our family. I wouldn't have given a fuck about his background if he'd treated her well. He didn't. All I know is he hurt my DD terribly and it took a long time for her to recover.

Not acknowledging a family dynamic in abuse is a mistake. It is a big factor in what models children are given, and for domestic abuse, it's statistically significant. Abusers come from all walks of life. They can have money or not. But the mentality of the families can be very similar. That's why generally the advice is to leave for your immediate safety and take the kids, because it's handed down by each generation.

You may be interested to know that a majority of men in prison grew up in abusive homes. It takes a huge effort to change or otherwise correct an abusive upbringing. It needs self awareness and commitment. Probably for life.

Saying abuse damages children is one thing. Saying children damaged by abuse grow into vulnerable adults is one thing.

Saying young women should run a mile from any man who hasn't had a perfect "two married parents" background is quite another. Do none of you have sons? If you were abused, would you want your sons consigned to the "undateable" pile, simply because of what happened to their parents?

Has anyone actually said that fairypeasant?

Since the person I spoke about had two married parents, it certainly wasn't me.

You'd be daft not to be wary though. Obviously you can get lovely men from terrible backgrounds and awful men from seemingly 'nice' backgrounds (although I wouldn't say you can always tell whether a family is dysfunctional just from whether they appear normal from the outside). However, growing up with an entitled and/or bullying parent can be a risk factor. Having experienced it myself, I wouldn't get involved with another man from a dysfunctional family again.

This.

So?

I will repeat. You have no idea how warmly we welcomed him into our family. So jog on with the criticism.

@Basecampzero And your family is completely functional, yes? Nothing that someone could judge you on at all? Not one alcoholic uncle, paedophile, divorce, whatever? You have no ACEs you could be judged on? No adult trauma?

This is stigma.

So?

So? You're judgemental. Judgemental based on something he had no say over (his mother's marriages). Yes, it sounds like he was a poor partner to your daughter, but the fact you're bringing him up, a man in your own words not guilty of DV, on a thread about a man who shot his wife and child means you think a man goes in that class simply because his mum married multiple times. That's "so"? And it stinks.

Finding this thread so helpful.
It happened in my family growing up and even now my siblings in their 40s and my mother in her 70s hold my (deceased) father in such high esteem I sometimes feel I have made all the emotional/psychological abuse up in my head.
I spent my childhood walking on eggshells, witnessing my mum being demeaned and sneered at and experiencing my father's silent treatment for days on end for no apparent reason other than that he wanted us reined back in and under his control again.
I can well imagine what Emma and Lettie suffered, and only hope this case brings about an awakening to the impact of our misogynistic culture on so many women and their children.

An MNer posted 'when your daughter has a partner, check him out' and I replied about an experience in our family.

Your aggressive post to me stinks. Many many posters on here have brought up mental abuse they suffered at the hands of their partners. I was just replying to a post, that's all.

💐

We had the same issues. Daughter wouldn't really engage with our concerns and when she did the controlling and manipulative behaviour started and she would go back to him. We recognised a wrongun, but not to the level that it eventually became. It took over 8 years and two children for her to get out and stay out. It's been hell for all of us, but at least when she left she left in style.

I didn't say that, did I? Where did I say that? It's not about judgement, it's about risk.

In fact the opposite is true in my case. I have spent a lifetime working on overcoming my traumas. I have also spent many years trying to help someone who doesn't want to put the work in to resolve his. So if you say that's judgment then I'm judging myself, then!

But being on the point of coming out of this situation, I haven't got the energy to risk getting into a similar situation again.

The biggest predictor of a secure relationship is at least one of the partners who has a secure attachment style. I think I deserve that now. And you have no right to tell me I shouldn't give myself the best chance of having this in the future.

And how do you feel if you date someone, and they say similar to you? "I like you, but I just don't want to date someone with trauma in their past, no matter what they're like as a person, so no thanks. It's a rule I have." Or, in the case on this thread, their mother marks you down as a wrong'n because you've had trauma. No matter how "welcoming" she is, you know she judges you because of your past trauma. She's tried warning your new partner that your trauma makes you unsuitable, but he won't listen.

You think that's an ok position to take?

You think if Emma had spent more time analysing George's attachment style, she'd be alive? Because that's victim blaming. This line of thought is bullshit.

I think frankly you can have any reason not to date someone. And you are being unfair. It is okay to draw a line for any reason, in a matter on intimate relationship.

Isn't that what part of what women can struggle to do? They often report on particular behaviour which is abusive, and then they will talk about the wider family of the partner, which has a similar pattern and concerns.

As this thread draws to a close, in case you or anyone you know needs this:

The Freedom Programme has online and in person courses:
www.freedomprogramme.co.uk/index.php

The National Domestic Violence 24 hour helpline number is 0808 2000 247

RIP Emma and Lettie